Winton: For the human good. And
Winton: So one of the people that that Stephen mentions
Winton: under this topic. Oh, Heaven!
Winton: Her name hasn't been mentioned. Yet is Malala usify
Winton: the Pakistani schoolgirl
Winton: who was shot in the head by an Islam Islamist fanatic precisely because she was a schoolgirl
Winton: and she survived, and became
Winton: one of the most formidable witnesses against
Winton: this sort of institutionalized
Winton: violence and misogyny
Winton: in the world. I mean, it was it. It was an extraordinary display of courage and perseverance that she could get it together, become become a world figure.
Winton: And no doubt caused a certain amount of disquiet among
Winton: misogynist Islamists.
Winton: And
Winton: because there's a certain a resonance in her name.
Winton: With another one of my
Winton: objects of admiration.
Winton: a man called Yosef Heelstrom.
Winton: who was born in the eastern seaboard city of
Winton: Yevlah, in Sweden.
Winton: who migrated to the United States.
Winton: When Yosef Hill stern, became Joe Hill.
Winton: and Joe Hill became
Winton: very quickly quite remarkable. Union organizer, a member of
Winton: the International Workers of the World.
Winton: known to their friends is the Wobblies and and he was also a cartoonist and a
Winton: and a songwriter.
Winton: and some of his songs live on today in the hands of people like Pete Seeger.
Winton: and
Winton: around about the age of 35
Winton: he was and
Winton: he was executed by firing squad in Utah.
Winton: And this these were really tough times in American labor history. It was the age of the Robert Barons
Winton: who had a death squad called, I think, Templeton. So right, Tim.
Winton: yeah. it was. It was a bunch of thugs and killers who were employed by the bosses
Winton: to get rid of inconvenient
Winton: Unionists.
Hmm.
Winton: Hamilton's
yeah and
Winton: and somehow they managed to outsource the job to the Utah State authorities on, and he was
Winton: executed
Winton: for on a
Winton: trumped up murder charge.
Winton: But the night before his execution he wrote a letter to a friend.
Winton: where he said. Don't mourn. organise.
Winton: and and
Winton: I guess you know one of the songs I remember from my youth was Joan by his singing the song, I dreamt I saw Joe Hill last night.
Winton: and those
Winton: words in the song.
Winton: and so again, it's this issue of voice, but he was also, I think, making a
Winton: a really good point that we do need to organize.
Winton: Whether it's it's a union, or whether it's
Winton: a a
Winton: body and defensive
Winton: environment or fighting
Winton: global warming, whatever. It is really important to come together and and do it well, do it properly.
Winton: and with
Winton: with as much cunning as possible.
Winton: I have had fond memory of another Unionist who I
Winton: you personally, and work with
Winton: for a while.
Winton: called Laurie Carmichael, who was the leader of the
Winton: the Australian Manufacturing Workers Union. So it was a major union in the manufacturing
Winton: industry. and Laurie Had a very gravelly voice.
Winton: He you knew he was in the room, even though he wasn't in any way
Winton: bombastic. He wasn't a rebel rouser. but he'd work his way up from the shop floor. becoming a shop steward. and then someone on the on the safety committee at work.
Winton: and then an organizer, and then a delegate, and so on up to where he became
Winton: the leader of this huge Union, and
Winton: And also on the governing body of the Australian Council of Trade Unions.
Winton: I got to know him because
Winton: he was an extraordinarily inquisitive and exploring man.
Winton: He was. He absolutely rejected
Winton: the Australian tradition of anti-intellectualism in Union affairs.
Winton: He didn't, wouldn't have a bar of that
Winton: and he
Winton: probably annoyed a few people by constantly inviting smarties in to talk to
Winton: to his more senior officials
Winton: and the smarties. Of course
Winton: university people like me. And but if Laurie said they had to be listened to well, that was it?
Winton: And
Winton: so I'd I'd written a couple of things about industrial democracy and economic democracy we were talking about
Winton: yesterday
Winton: should somehow come to Laurie's attention, and I got some
Winton: some great gigs going down to the Clyde Cameron
Winton: College, where which was the training ground for for Union organizers and delegates to talk about the Swedish model and and those sorts of forms of industrial reform.
Winton: And
Winton: While I was down there once, and one of his close associates told me that this wonderful story about how
Winton: Laurie, who was actually a member of the Communist party of Australia.
Winton: was invited, invited to Moscow to a a kind of conference of Western Communist Union officials.
Winton: Laurie had pretty negative attitude towards the Soviet Union and everything that was going on there, but somehow they managed to persuade him to go, and
Winton: at the at initial
Winton: party to welcome everybody and everyone standing around in a circle, and
Winton: everyone's drinking vodka.
Winton: except for Lori and Laurie kept on refusing the the glasses that were offered to him.
Winton: And this somehow got up the nose of one of the Soviet officials
Winton: who said. You know, if you're going to be a true man of the people you've got to drink.
Winton: And Laurie said.
Winton: I see, comrade, and how many elections have you won?
Winton: And of course it was. It was, as we say here, a barbecue stopper. It was a deeply subversive question in the, in the circumstances, and the elephant in the room became clearly visible.
Winton: The The other just final thing. I want to say is about voice is some that
Winton: it's important to work on your voice.
Winton: And what just wanna go back to that conversation between S. Simon Critchley and Isabelle up here.
Winton: where she talks about aliveness.
Winton: Aliveness is not just a function of enthusiasm. It's a function of training.
Winton: and she's probably one of the most highly trained and highly qualified
actors in the Western world.
Winton: and and is obviously deploying skills in the way in the way she
Winton: and in the way which he manages
Winton: to to send that aliveness out.
Winton: to be able to project it
Winton: into the hearts and minds of the audience. And it's all about that.
Winton: You know Machiavelli's ethos. that if your cause is deeply serious.
Winton: then you have a deeply serious responsibility.
To win
Winton: to get it right?
Winton: And so you've got to give it your best shot.
Winton: Failure is not an option, as it is as obviously is the case in in when we struggling against global warming and the other major crises we've got today.
Winton: I
Winton: as an academic. I didn't understand this until about 23 years ago, when I decided
Winton: to be serious about creative writing. Up to then I was like all the other hackers, and thought
Winton: that if you had an idea. You just wrote it down
Winton: and then send it to the publisher.
Winton: And that's why most academic writing is
Winton: unreadable, or at least unattractive. And and to actually, you know, edit edit. have in my mature years to have to go back to school and learn to write
Winton: was really something. and
Winton: so I managed to piggyback on A, on a creative writing course
Winton: at the University I was about to leave. and and it was, and it was an extraordinary experience.
Winton: And but the point was that in order to find my voice as a writer. I really had to learn a whole bunch of
Winton: technical skills, even simple.
Winton: simple technical points, like avoiding commerce slices.
Winton: I'd never heard of a comma splice, but it's when you use a comma instead of a full stop, and it makes, and if you use that
Winton: lot, it makes you pros very sloppy and and and it and it loses any kind of tension. Another one was, you know. How do you write dialogue?
Winton: You can't. You've got to take. You've you've got to take account of the fact that humans can only can only say so many words in one breath, and then there's a bit of a pause when we, when we draw in our breath and say something, say a bit more so. Your dialogue has to have that rhythm in it. So all these sorts of all these sorts of quite
Winton: basic principles had to. I had to learn them
Winton: before I could. Really I could, I could really find my own voice
Winton: justice, I guess Isabel Uber had to know all these basic technical, technical
Winton: points in order to be able to project the kind of aliveness she was aspiring to.
Winton: So I think I'll leave it there with the advice work on your voice.
Winton: It's really important to get to to be to make it effective.
Winton: So we've got about 20 min to
Winton: talk about this.
Winton: and off we go.
Winton: Winton. Oh, this is Libby. By the way.
Winton: yes, I totally agree with what you're saying it. I've been thinking about finding my own voice. I'm over the last week, and the thought that's come to me is that it's really it's really important to have the words.
Winton: If you want to use your voice.
Winton: And and I think in the past, in
Winton: situations where I've
Winton: not persisted or lacked courage to to achieve an outcome that was more ethical.
Winton: I think, has been simply because I didn't.
Winton: I didn't know the words to use and the way to use them to get the outcome. I wanted
Winton: by Judy here.
Winton: probably a very short point. I've noticed that certainly, in work, language.
Winton: and in terms of showing respectfulness. tone of voice, has become a very big thing. But everyone has a subjective opinion
Winton: about tone. So I was finding it highly challenging in my workplace to adopt
Winton: the right tone.
Winton: I don't. Anyway, I don't necessarily have an answer to that. And maybe that was during Covid and a lot of online video conversations
Winton: where?
Winton: Hmm, I think they tended to be more aggressiveness than if you were in face-to-face meetings with people that you knew. So.
Winton: yeah, probably.
Winton: Practice that, you know, or people's sensitivities to tone or facial expressions, etc.
Winton: Yeah. And important to effective communication
Winton: tones with, I think we've gone through the right words or not shouting and all sorts of things. But now it's down to your tone
Winton: in in what is appropriate communication.
Winton: Yeah, I don't think any comment on it.
Winton: A gun here. one of the most important things, I think, is meaning what you say.
Winton: and that sounds very simple.
Winton: but in fact, we very rarely really mean what we say. We sort of don't not mean it, but we don't deeply mean it.
Winton: and it's I think there's something which is parallel to deep listening.
Winton: which is a sort of deep listening before, and as you speak. and then
Winton: the very specific words, and the very specific timing, and all of those things. however much or however little training you've had
Winton: come out, and I read at lunchtime a little bit that Jackie Lambie had addressed to employers in Australia, who were disappointed that industrial relations, legislation had gone through
Winton: vintage. Jackie Lambie absolutely brilliant, and quite clearly every single syllable meant.
Winton: and she would have helped them every time if she could, and they knew it.
Winton: But it was that deep meaning, and you could see that those words came from her past and her experience and they were grounded.
Winton: Thank you. We've got Leslie online.
Lesley Synge: Hi, everybody.
Lesley Synge: I'd like to Winton to tease out a little bit more about the difference between
Lesley Synge: being reactive. being responsive and finding voice. And I ask this question because
Lesley Synge: I know, as a young woman, I found it very difficult to find my voice, particularly in the group of men.
Lesley Synge: They were pretty actively
Lesley Synge: rent, wanting to render us women silent back in the day
Lesley Synge: in a political atmosphere. I'm fine. I'm thinking of. I think, as a teacher I had to be extremely responsive. You've got to entertain
Lesley Synge: like 30 born teenagers on a hot summer day in Brisbane, or even further north. So I think I became quite a responsive, perhaps reactive person as a result of my profession.
because I notice, even when we're talking here.
Lesley Synge: You know, if you crack a joke of
Lesley Synge: somebody says something moving, I am instantly responding.
Lesley Synge: so I find it actually quite hard not to be reactive as well.
Lesley Synge: and the whole idea of being a meditator who can somehow become like a block of wood
Lesley Synge: is something that I
Lesley Synge: don't quite get in some ways. I mean, I can see the point of doing it sometimes, but
Lesley Synge: my natural reaction is well, I just use the word reaction, my natural response, my natural reaction is to be probably reactive. So if you could say a little bit more about responsiveness
Lesley Synge: and reactivity, and how we train ourselves, and why we should train ourselves
Lesley Synge: out of responsiveness. For example, I'd be really interested to hear that.
Winton: Yeah, I think the the the usefulness of the logo would is that it gives you a pause to
Winton: a a pause which allows you to exercise freedom. to decide what the next step is going to be. I mean, if if one reacts, the reaction is is the kind of instantaneous or nearly instantaneous.
Winton: Follow on from whatever it is. It's usually something unpleasant that's been said or done or seen. And and if we react, we're we're not acting freely.
Winton: And so
Winton: one might remain a log of wood for a couple of seconds, but then, in those in that time a response
Winton: might come which is going to mean.
Winton: That, you know the the evil circle is broken.
Winton: I think I think that's that's a point. But when when you're speaking to about
Winton: about
Winton: the the effects of gender in meeting situations. it's it just reminded me of when I when I was doing research on Swedish unions
Winton: the there was there I came across someone else's research, which showed that
Winton: when women became
Winton: Union delegates or we can got onto you know, governing bodies of unions, they often put on weight.
Winton: and the reason I put on weight was so that the men in the room could see that
Winton: and one of the most startling things that could.
Winton: While I was, there was
Winton: something that happened in the to the biggest union in the country, which was the public public Sector union for the the worst part nurses, nurses, sides, and all sorts of and cleaners, and so on. The Union was
Winton: the Member Union membership was 80%. Female, and the Union leadership was 80%. Male
Winton: and And then along came
Winton: a nurse's aide who was really huge. I mean, she was, you know, about 190 cm, tall
Winton: and well belt, and had a big voice, and
Winton: she joined the the the executive of the Union of the Peak Council in in Sweden, and all the men could see.
Winton: And she became, and she became this extraordinarily powerful figure. So we don't a lot of. I think some of it has to do with with body and and probably body language. You know, she wasn't
Winton: backward and coming forward obviously. And
Winton: so there's a lot of things going on, I think, you know, in in, in a situation like you're talking about
Winton: like teaching or being in a meeting something like that. But this whole thing about
Winton: about gender is quite, quite extraordinary and very well.
Research there!
Winton: I remember another occasion. I went to a meeting about gender equity at Stockholm University. and
Winton: one of the speakers, who was a professor of mathematics.
Winton: who have.
Winton: who realize that
Winton: There was something wrong with his working environment, as they say in Sweden, there's something wrong with my working environment. And it was that it was 90% male. So he decided to really try and get more more women to enroll in mathematics. And he so
Winton: yeah, even though there was a minority of women in rolling. He he worked it so that
the women were
Winton: that there were at least a third of any tutorial were women, and that meant that some. some tutorials are said to be all male. But when there was then, when there were one third
Winton: women in the class, and you know things proceeded, and then he started getting this feedback
Winton: from male students, saying the women were dominating their classes. And it's a
Winton: you. You mean they're in a majority. And they said, Yes.
Winton: and these are mass students. So so there's a there's an awful lot of
Winton: odd murky stuff going on in the unconscious. I think that we need to factor in in understanding these sorts of dynamics.
Lesley Synge: Okay. I'll let other people ask questions.
Lesley Synge: Lovely. Thank you. We've got another person online, Tina, she can unmute yourself. Yeah, we go.
Tina Gibson: Yeah, I'll be brief, cause I know Ryan hasn't spoken yet. I just wanted to. Be a bit vulnerable and share like I didn't have a voice in my house and then at school I couldn't read, so I can now. It took me a while.
Tina Gibson: but it can be a real block for people
Tina Gibson: and with the loving nudge from Anna she got me to join an online group for writing letters and the whole group it was. It became aware to me that you could just write it in layman's terms, you know these letters, but it was a big block before this. I was thinking, I'm not an academic. I can't make sense. And
Tina Gibson: now
Tina Gibson: I write all these letters, and I just say, Hey, I'm a grandma. I love the ocean, and I talk about the stories of connection with nature, and how I want that for children of the future, and I can do that easily, but it's not very academic. But
Tina Gibson: you know, Anna, who's with you all, assured me that actually they're a little bit more interesting for people to read rather than having anything too complex. So that's all. I just wanted to add that as a voice, because I'm not alone, I'm sure some people other people also have a block, thinking I can't write anything.
Tina Gibson: that's that will seem clever enough. So that's all. Thank you.
Winton: We've got Anna in the room, and then Ryan online after that.
Hmm.
Winton: oh, and everyone's probably pretty much talked about this. But I, Leslie and Winton. But just being that, being aware of
Winton: of the effect of not being heard both for yourself, of not being heard. whether now or as a child, or whatever, and and being aware of other people like not just women, but
Winton: you know children or indigenous people, or the underprivileged. You know.
Winton: people who just don't feel worthy.
Winton: and therefore don't feel heard. And I mean, it's a it's a really
Winton: good topic about how to gain skills.
Winton: to, to to allow people to feel heard.
Winton: and in our even in our dharma groups we bow before we speak.
Winton: and everyone bows, and no one could interrupt, and no one can until that person's finished, and then they bow. And then we're supposed to have a 30 s or a minute, so that then you can think of what you're gonna say, cause so often. While someone speaking, you know you're concocting what you'd say in return, or you've got a better story or something like that. So that hold dynamic about how crippling it is for a lot of people who aren't heard. Yeah.
Winton: okay. Ryan online. Ryan.
Ryan Deslandes: Hi, Hi, Wynton, Hi, everyone. What a pleasure to be able to attend! I hope you can hear me. I haven't experimented with my audio much, so I belong to a group called recovery Dharma. So that's sort of basically Buddhism plus inspired by the 12 step gear-led community support movement. So that's for people who have addiction.
Ryan Deslandes: The substances are addiction to process addictions, and it's a way that our rather than crisis manifests itself. Addiction. And I guess I wondered, and I managed to make it to the topic of your talk today. If you had any suggestions for people who are.
Ryan Deslandes: you know, in addiction, trying to use their voice and their agency to say no to something. So I'd be interested in in anyone's.
Ryan Deslandes: But yeah on that. Thank you.
Winton: Did anyone want to make a contribution to that?
Winton: Kenny? Yeah.
Winton: Me it. Look, it's I. It's completely outside my
Winton: competence. So I just your question just raises a reference for me. And
Winton: in Bert Albrecht's play on Galileo there's there's the line.
Winton: So much is gained when just one person says No stands up and says no.
Winton: and
Winton: I don't know. Maybe that's helpful. If people are being constantly manipulated by their would be carers, or, you know.
Winton: so called experts. And the ability just to say No
Winton: is, is really important.
Winton: I know a friend of mine
Winton: had an awful lot of had a terrible problem. Saying no.
Winton: and his his partner got him to stand in the front of the mirror, open his mouth, and put his the tip of his tongue to the top of the roof of his mouth, and begin to pronounce the word. No, it was good therapy.
Winton: and
Winton: I think Margaret Margaret had a question.
Winton: I really want to follow up from what Anna said, that there are people in our community who cannot speak for themselves.
Winton: As a volunteer at the asylum Seeker Center. Most of our clients, if not all of them.
Winton: feel that they could not speak for themselves. They feel that
Winton: they would be punished by the Government
Winton: if they speak up about the way they're being treated.
Winton: And so a number of us are trained as community speakers. So we go out when invited to speak to
Winton: schools different groups in the community about the experience of our clients and the global situation and the situation in this country.
Winton: And so it's the
Winton: art of advocacy. I'm sure many people here do that. So it's really I'm raising it and hoping to get tips from other people.
Winton: I try to relate.
Winton: because most people had no idea what it means to be an asylum seeker.
Winton: And so I try to relate that experience so that they have some
Winton: of understanding of it. when we were having the horrible bushfires. That was really easy, because
Winton: for once people understood what it was like when you just have to drop everything and run for your life, and that's
Winton: what it was like for a lot of our clients.
Winton: So I like to hear from other people here who are advocates. And how do you do that job? Well. and the other thing that I get tripped up is that
Winton: From time to time I get I can just fill the the feelings. You know you feel the suffering.
and when you're talking about it, and
Winton: you try not to get emotional. So the whole issue of in our culture. It's not quite acceptable
Winton: to be emotional
Winton: about
Winton: people suffering
Winton: about the terrible conditions that it's you should be as calm as possible.
Winton: and
Winton: speak of it as if you know it's not happening in a way. So yeah.
Winton: really, I just kind of want to open it up in terms of.
Winton: If you work as advocates and speak for those who cannot. how do you do it? And what what can we learn from you.
Winton: Is there someone that had a quick response to that straight off the bat?
Lena: Hmm!
Winton: I'm John. Thanks, Margaret. I work with the voluntary work with homeless people.
Winton: and I find the
Winton: a very important part of the task is to help them to feel heard within organizations
Winton: that a lot of the time I mean III mean, I'm a psychologist, but I don't. I don't have my psychology running in my head when I'm working with them.
Winton: I'm doing a lot of listening.
Winton: and then when I'm with them with agencies, I'm being very careful being watchful. Rather should say,
Winton: helping to manage the flow of information that goes across to the person with who is homeless, because quite often they're dealing with their drug addictions and their their
Winton: true horrific life stories, so they can cope with small bits of information, and being able to manage between agencies and upon the homeless person.
Winton: so that the homeless person can go away or come away with a sense of there's something happening. They're not just getting confused.
Winton: So giving voice to people who don't feel they've got a voice. suppose my my first step is. I spent a long time listening to them. and once I feel connected
Winton: then quite often, they feel like they've got some sort of. We talked about an anchor before somebody we're talking about. Having an anchor, but you become like the the anchor for them, and that they'll keep coming back to.
Winton: It's a slow progress. Yeah. we're a slow journey.
Winton: Yeah. So that was my comment about giving voice number
Winton: to people who feel they don't have a voice.
Winton: Thanks, John. We've got Amy, and then we've got Rina on line.
Winton: Thank you. My name's Amy, and I'd like to speak to Ryan's question
Winton: about saying, No.
Winton: I for me. I'll talk about my own story. I think that it was
Winton: part of the experience of not being heard part of the experience of being punished.
Winton: part of the experience of being ashamed by people.
Winton: and I think that that became like a very tight scarf around my throat.
Winton: and in order for me to say no to somebody, it was very unsafe
Winton: because of this accumulation.
Winton: and I think that I, when I look back of how did that change?
Winton: It started by saying No to people that I felt
Winton: knew me. The few people that I felt dear me! Did hear me, and were close to me, and from there.
Winton: and Eve, and also I needed to think of it needed to know, or how I'd feel. I didn't know this at the time what would happen if I said no, and they just went on anyway, and that was a big hurdle.
Winton: But after starting there, it's rippled out. And
Winton: now I'm really able to say no when I believe that that is the right thing for me to say thank you.
Winton: I'm just wondering whether we can save Rennet till till next session, because we're now a bit over time.
Winton: Is that possible? That works very well, cause she's dropped offline. I think right. Well, why don't we?
Winton: break for coffee? And we're back in half an hour.
wayside.
Winton: hey? So
Winton: Let's get the questions and comments rolling again.
Winton: We got anyone. And yes, there's
Bronwen: what's it?
Winton: Thank you. It is again.
Winton: You talk. You talk about voice and giving voice and living, your voice be heard.
Winton: What is your thoughts on
Winton: the other side?
Winton: It's one thing talking. It's another thing having an audience that's actually going to listen
Winton: and receive. So it's you know how to, as
Winton: WS. Gilbert said, make the punish, let the punishment fit the crime, and know who you are dressing so doesn't land on deaf ears.
Winton: and especially in a society like ours, where there's so much complacency.
Winton: Well.
Winton: I just don't know how you overcome complacency, except that's why
through
Winton: actions that can't be ignored, sort of like like extinction, rebellion actions, things like that that actually jolt people
Winton: and the rising tide.
Winton: demonstration all those sorts of things. I think you've just got to
Winton: have a spectacle and make a lot of noise.
Winton: I mean communications is not my long suit, but I that seems to be the way that that
Winton: if you make a lot of noise and there's a lot of people. It just means it's important to have a lot of people on the street. I'm thinking particularly of the
Winton: anti-war movement. and you know, the more
Winton: people on the street. They the more it seemed to get through.
Winton: Not only to people who are apathetic.
Winton: but were but to people who were ill intentions.
Bronwen: kept thinking of
Winton: Hachi means comments that
Winton: the Vietnam war
was one on the streets of Chicago. Because the it was those
Winton: mass demonstrations of
Winton: refusal
Winton: to accept the word.
Winton: That really means that Western political leaderships
couldn't keep going on.
Winton: And the end the
Winton: strategists in Hanoi knew that they actually prompted when the demonstration should occur
Winton: in various countries to keep keep a steady roll of those demonstrations happening.
Winton: It was really interesting how they did that in.
Winton: you know, as part of the anti-war movement then. and you get these prompts from
Winton: now is the time for another. You know. Big one down.
Winton: you know, along the quarry street, or something like that.
Winton: So, apart from that, it's hard to think of how you
Winton: no doubt, you know there's a whole
Winton: discipline around. You know, in communications about how you reach the complacent or the apathetic, or this simply switched off.
Winton: Probably people have had experience of that in the room and might enlighten us.
It's a beautiful
Winton: you, but
Winton: I think the kind of some of the outreach ideas going up on the board and talked about here around these kitchen table discussions, the outreach to people who may not or may not even be impressed by what they see on the news, whether it's a demo or whatever I think it's a personal, and and that extending out now is often
Winton: kind of going to be the most
Winton: it's going to give people the best grounding in understanding what it is that's going on. I probably have a little bit of a reservation about Demos that are not strategically targeted because it can inconvenience very people that you're wanting to bring on board. I think it's great if it is aimed at certain banks and certain entities and certain political
Winton: entities. But I think, yeah, it needs to be done well. But the other part of it is that I think just about every action that's probably ever happened has been reliant on positive media covering it.
Winton: because as soon as the media paints it as just a rabble, then you've lost it. So it's less about getting a halt. Well, it is largely about getting a lot of people out there, but it's also making sure the media's there, and they're going to cover it in a sympathetic way, and I think every organisation to some degree orchestrates that the best way they can. But of course, we've already talked about the limitations
Winton: of a sort of media coverage according to which Media is doing that.
Winton: Thanks, Susie. Just a brief comment
Winton: around the referendum on the voice there was some brilliant analysis of communication done particularly, I think it was called passing the message stick
Winton: was an extraordinary report.
Winton: based on about 2 or 3 years research on how to communicate with the different communities different issue from the climate issue. But the issues are the same well worth looking at.
Winton: I was just wondering was there anything, any particular insight that came out of that?
Winton: In response to this question about how to reach the apathetic. Well.
Winton: see, II would say, and this is me speaking, not
Winton: the
Winton: not that particular report. The moment you talk about the apathetic, you've lost it
Winton: got a bunch of people. From your point of view. They're apathetic. From that point of view. They're living their lives in the terms of meaning and the the context in which they're living.
Winton: and I think what you have to do is you have to understand that in order to be able to engage with them
Winton: the moment you come with the deplorables or apathetic mindset, I think you lost.
Winton: and essentially that, I think, is the
Winton: foundational insight of a lot of this research, which I think comes back a little bit to what
Winton: you're talking about, too.
Winton: But clearly you wouldn't address them as use the apathetic, I mean, but but you think about them. But you but you know, in analytic mode you've got to think about about them.
Winton: Yes, but if your analysis starts with terminology like that. Then, as a social scientist, you would know that that colors the way you go about and understand. Go about your search and understand what you find.
Winton: and I think there's real dangers in coming at it
too much from that point of view
Winton: that you can learn some things. But I think there's real dangers personally.
Winton: Thanks. We've got Rayner online. Who has a question.
rena czaplinska-archer: No, I oh, am I unmuted? Can you hear me?
Winton: We can? Oh, good. So
rena czaplinska-archer: and I have. I have been involved in collaborative community consultations. 34, 35 years ago, and
rena czaplinska-archer: did such a good job with it that I will send to Unesco to represent Podesco Conference to represent Australia's
rena czaplinska-archer: found with great
rena czaplinska-archer: Surprised by some people from Poland, said, what are you talking about? How can I be talking such a Communist language up there? When people post solidarity stage, anyway? I have found that the way to engage collective creativity, which is what we are talking about. I have published on this section on academia.edu, under my name.
rena czaplinska-archer: in the list of various things that I have written. Collaborative design process, which includes communities
rena czaplinska-archer: which might be not very articulate in English, who might be including people who are not very good at reading, who might be very conscious that the way of speaking, using a lot heavy accent.
rena czaplinska-archer: That's been my experiences a lot of time when I've been speaking. People listen to
rena czaplinska-archer: my melody of the language or the my accent, rather than to what I was trying to say, I have I have learned to employ nonverbal language
rena czaplinska-archer: and nonverbal ways of communicating by engaging community in
rena czaplinska-archer: simpler exercise not necessarily simpler, because in terms of social research they very sophisticated, but they are not using. They not based on verbal verbal, comes after those exercises were done, and they include collective creativity, inspiring collective creativity. That was the topic of the community center that I designed, and that took me to Denmark.
rena czaplinska-archer: In 2,000 and
rena czaplinska-archer: 1991. So ages ago, I came back to Australia. I found Australia. I was not interested in color, collaborative design processes. There was no money for it, and so I went back to designing houses for individual clients who, willing to pay me. I need to bring up my 2 cents. So I wanted to
rena czaplinska-archer: to answer. I think Margaret asked question about how to communicate with refugees.
rena czaplinska-archer: Oh, with people who have difficulty speaking English.
rena czaplinska-archer: There are people who are
rena czaplinska-archer: well, there are, there are. There are exercises, and there are processes which I used in collective creativity. Workshop approached collective creativity. That have been studied and described in 19 seventies and eighties, I have actually hooked on to stuff to do with them, dancing
rena czaplinska-archer: an authentic movement, and including
rena czaplinska-archer: actually walking the land
rena czaplinska-archer: and actually sharing your noticing of what you notice, and and discovering which things you like, and which things you don't like very simple things, same thing as meditation, but doing it in groups, and notice things which you like and not, and then sharing those things. And this is discovering where, for what? Other things which
rena czaplinska-archer: which are dear to people collectively, and what therefore vision they might have for the future, and somehow finding something called
rena czaplinska-archer: common language, which is not necessarily an in fact, country to A lot of conversation that I heard today is nothing to do with eloquent, articulate academic training. In fact, in my in my experience of doing my Pd. Phd. Very early at 26 London, I have one of the things I was taught that really smart people
rena czaplinska-archer: do not speak in the language, that others need to be, use dictionaries to understand that they are able to say something very complicated in a very simple language. because communication is very important. And so I have. When I
rena czaplinska-archer: I think I shared it before with Bergamsanga, one of the things that I have discovered when I sort of landed in Australia and started practising architecture with the aim of trying to make a difference
rena czaplinska-archer: I was that I realized that the in academic training made my head very heavy. On one side, left side. I felt like I had a horn on the left side, sticking out the left side of my brain was over developed, and the right, which was pretty good, because with Polish, imagination and
rena czaplinska-archer: various sort of stories, and
rena czaplinska-archer: all story stories, and whatever I was brought up stories I had pretty vivid, but it sort of got
rena czaplinska-archer: squashed by all this intellectual stuff, and the thing that I decided to do was to keep developing, to turn my attention to intent to
rena czaplinska-archer: intuition. And the question was, Where is it? And so
rena czaplinska-archer: that's what I started. That was my main
rena czaplinska-archer: motto of teaching at Sydney University. When I was teaching, I was indicted soon after to start teaching in a design studio third year in sustainability and heritage and
rena czaplinska-archer: the thing that doesn't matter what we're talking about. I always try to to
rena czaplinska-archer: somehow
rena czaplinska-archer: transmit the information about intuition. And for me, intuition is actually in the body. It's in the heart.
rena czaplinska-archer: But and it's to do with somehow entrance to this through the feelings and the feeling tone in the body none of that was ever taught. It's like you don't talk the one thing you don't, you can't talk you. There was an earlier conversation about it. You must talk about
rena czaplinska-archer: big traumas, but with no emotions. Well.
rena czaplinska-archer: part of this thing about being able to talk with people who are not very articulate, and don't want to
rena czaplinska-archer: to, to narrow down the conversation to very articulate and clever words, but are very involved or
rena czaplinska-archer: are willing to contribute, is actually to share the feelings about the spaces we live in, about the cities, and how they are designed and and draw creative ideas. There's nothing special about architects and urban planners that
rena czaplinska-archer: that makes them experts in designing
rena czaplinska-archer: or politicians. They definitely not expressing designing is people who are very good design. Some of the slams in the world are the best designs urban places.
rena czaplinska-archer: On the planet. but
rena czaplinska-archer: it. It's a matter of allowing people to come collectively and talk about it. And
rena czaplinska-archer: yeah, so that covers that thing. I had another comment on. Clearing the path. And on
rena czaplinska-archer: something that we talked about cultivating Dharma by cultivating the person you want to become.
rena czaplinska-archer: and by cultivating the voice. In 2,007, when I came back from my well, when what collapsed and we formed and we formed S as SIM, which I was one of the Co. Organizer with, went and invited me to be one of the founders. I actually left
rena czaplinska-archer: Australia, and I went on a trip round the world to sort of recover myself
rena czaplinska-archer: because I really loved doing Dharma in the forest.
rena czaplinska-archer: At the what. And II didn't feel the same way. Meeting in some little rooms doesn't matter how friendly the group was. I was missing the trees,
rena czaplinska-archer: And so I when I came back I discovered I developed rheumatoid arthritis, and
rena czaplinska-archer: I am. I immediately got myself into the work back again, and I put myself under 4 weeks fast. What a fast
rena czaplinska-archer: didn't want to listen to the expert doctors.
rena czaplinska-archer: And and well, while at the what.
rena czaplinska-archer: as if fant there used to be fantastic library, I went to the library, and the first book I opened was clearing the path by Nanar Verata.
rena czaplinska-archer: which happened to be the book which
rena czaplinska-archer: Stephen has dedicated. He's
rena czaplinska-archer: and Buddhism without beliefs. Little book, too. None of your Terra committed suicide after finishing writing that book in 1965. But the first thing in that book on the front page was
rena czaplinska-archer: saying, if you want to read that book because you're an academic, and you just love reading and collecting more and more clever information. Don't bother.
rena czaplinska-archer: But if you are a person that wants to really change your life
rena czaplinska-archer: because you have some condition which he bothers you, and you are committed to changing the way you live.
rena czaplinska-archer: Read it, and I promise you that by the time you've finished that 500 pages
rena czaplinska-archer: you'll be clear, your path will be clear. Well, I read that book. I had enough time to read that book and practise
rena czaplinska-archer: in the beautiful cellar. and reflect
rena czaplinska-archer: and draw and think.
rena czaplinska-archer: and including.
rena czaplinska-archer: really
rena czaplinska-archer: finding the way that Nana Vera describes
rena czaplinska-archer: defunable truth as tasks, and how he describes the clearing of the path. Here is a big section on addiction, where he describes that the whole society we live in is addicted.
rena czaplinska-archer: some addicted to to meditation, you know.
rena czaplinska-archer: He didn't say that, but but he pointed out that there is a lot of addiction going on. I have discovered that because I had issues with my children, and I had to join
rena czaplinska-archer: a a a alcoholics anonymous. I discovered that group iacons was was the most amazingly practising
rena czaplinska-archer: Buddhist group in like they were not. They didn't call themselves Buddhists, but they were using the
rena czaplinska-archer: the principles of
rena czaplinska-archer: what are we talking about? Donna Alvira. Talk talking about addiction to work, addiction to newspapers, addiction to television addiction to
rena czaplinska-archer: sweets, addiction to sex addiction to whatever you want.
rena czaplinska-archer: and that we are in a society that is addicted, and part of the thing about clearing the path is to become aware of your own addictions. You don't have to be on drugs, you can be on something completely. Else
rena czaplinska-archer: could be on buying another unit.
rena czaplinska-archer: counting your mind, being worried about everything all the time, thinking that you can solve your children's problems all the time. It's been my big problem, like, whoever has a problem, give it to me and I'll solve it. No.
rena czaplinska-archer: I decided to give up on this, and I am going now. I have discovered in the clearing of the path. In my own life I have discovered that I have overloaded my heart with every everybody else's problems, including my children's problems, and that the only way that I keep going that I can keep going is that I have to replenish my heart just like a plant that needs watering. And so I have
rena czaplinska-archer: after covet last year. But I've been going there for quite a few years, but last year, after covet.
rena czaplinska-archer: I went to the desert. I have been going then. I've spent about 3 months this last 12 months in the desert. I find it's feeding me, and it's an amazing place to practise Dhamma in.
rena czaplinska-archer: And it's really nice going on my own. It's really nice to go with, like minded people who are interested in deep listening.
rena czaplinska-archer: deep listening, not to clever words, but to whispers
rena czaplinska-archer: to poetry that is somehow the in the, in, the
rena czaplinska-archer: who in the wind, or in the whatever. The bird comes up and shows me the babies, and does this and the kangaroo, and so on.
rena czaplinska-archer: and the stories of trauma and terrible injustices that happened to this land.
rena czaplinska-archer: And then all the lies I'm so uninterested in listening to clever conversations about English ways, and how? Why, yes, why not by something else? I
rena czaplinska-archer: coming from German, from I was born in a post war German city
rena czaplinska-archer: on top of ruins of the Breslau. and the whole story of whose fault it was. And anybody German is bad an
rena czaplinska-archer: course. Anybody English is perhaps not quite the same, but somehow this conversation has to
rena czaplinska-archer: has to happen. I find it really confusing to be stuck in this I am conf. I am conf. I am Australian, but I want to be living in a country where people are more honest, and they actually use their heart to communicate. Thank you, that's all. Thank you. Thank you. Rayna.
Winton: Yeah. Have you? Kristen? Oh, thanks.
Winton: I went to Golden Bottle Sanger a couple of times, and they often meet underneath an alcoholics, anonymous meeting. So there's lots of clapping and cheering. And it's actually
Winton: really nice.
Winton: just in terms of communication and
Winton: response in
Winton: terms of climate.
Winton: Something, I wonder is if there's enough variety, and
Winton: I don't know more authenticity and a sense of real engagement in what's being offered. I guess.
Winton: in the climate communication.
Winton: I was just reminded of
Winton: my sister the other day, was getting annoyed at me because I apparently never listened to her advice.
Winton: And I said to her, Well, you think everything I do is bad, so I've stopped listening. and I think that's just constant
Winton: single-minded not, you know.
Winton: not necessarily all negative, but you do sort of drain it out, and I think
Winton: it was. She actually had never realized that, and began to engage with me in a much more sort of
Winton: a
Winton: thoughtful way, II think. And and over the next few days she came out with a few things like oh, but you know, I'm really, you know, impressed with your commitment to the Senga thing and
Winton: and a few different things like that. And it actually had a real impact on our relationship, because I started listening to her. And she actually says some quite useful things.
Winton: So
Winton: think that was that was my comment, just the the real sense of engagement and being listened to, and maybe the
Winton: a variety
Winton: authenticity. And I think it comes back to what we were saying over the past few days that the individual contributions everyone has to make will probably be the strength of
Winton: what we can offer.
Thanks.
Winton: thanks, Kristen. We've got Lena and Gary online. And then John in the in the room.
Winton: Okay.
Lena: okay, I just had a
Lena: short
Lena: comment to, I think to Margaret.
Lena: When you talked, Margaret, about being emotional when you're talking about the lives to this, to school schools, or whatever about the the lives of the people you are helping and dealing with the asylum seekers and being too emotional.
Lena: And I can really understand that that what came to my mind was our once
Lena: sort of quite macho. Prime Minister
Lena: for pork!
Lena: He cried in front of the whole country, when he had a family problems with his children. I think one of them was a drug addict.
Lena: And yeah, it was amazing to see him
Lena: actually express that his feelings. So I think it's nothing. I think it's good to be
Lena: too emotional
Lena: and not hold back. But then I also wanted to know when and what you think about, whether changes in society
Lena: can only happen with
Lena: this type of things like the protest and demonstrations. And I think you went back to the Vietnam war, which was sort of one by by people showing what they felt.
Lena: And then I was thinking, we can go as far back as the vote for women.
Lena: and how that was played out in England.
Lena: and how people the women were arrested, and they were imprisoned. and, etc. But then, of course, we have also quite a few demonstrations which are lost like. There was a huge demonstration for the Iraq War.
Lena: and it was both in England, here around the world. and we still
Lena: sort of people. We we people lost in that regard. And you know. And eventually we saw what happened. It gave rise to Isis and Li. The situation we have now is.
Lena: goes back to that, too, I think, with the con. Such con conflict between Muslims and
Lena: the rest of society.
Lena: So I just wanted to know what you. Do you think there is another way? Or is that just what we have to do?
Lena: Yeah, I think it might end up with the an Iraq situation with the climate protests. Yes, certainly the those massive demonstrations against
Winton: the invasion of Iraq.
Winton: Oh, we had plenty of time for lots of huge demonstrations against the
Winton: signal that we're that
Winton: Iraq was going to be invaded by the USUK. Australia and Poland
and there were massive demonstrations.
Winton: and well, certainly, and Australia, UK. And the Us.
Winton: And elsewhere. And and they went ahead and invaded anyway.
Winton: in spite of it being
Winton: a major international crime to invade
Winton: a sovereign country. Unilaterally, with no
Winton: provocation.
Winton: And that was certainly an enormous defeat for
Winton: popular mobilization.
Winton: But there! But I think the the other ones you mentioned later, like the
Winton: the Suffragette, the Suffragettes and the Vietnam war zone, and
Winton: maybe and I'm just sort of thinking aloud here it has to do with
Winton: the how these issues affect people in the country.
Winton: The Vietnam war affected people in Australia, because
Winton: what young men were being
Winton: conscripted and then sent over there and getting killed. And it was the the war itself
Winton: had no moral basis whatsoever, and the way of choosing the people to be sent over.
In harm's way, was also completely capricious. It was a lottery
Winton: and a conscription based on a lottery.
Winton: And I think, in that case, and also in Britain, of course. The the women who were disenfranchised were right there.
Winton: and could no doubt give their husbands and brothers, etc., near full about that, and I think that kind it again. There was no moral basis for that disenfranchisement.
Winton: and in that way those mobilisations actually succeeded. So in terms of what we've the problems we're facing
Winton: here now.
Winton: particularly with climate change. The you know, the
Winton: effects of climate change are in everybody's face.
Winton: especially in this country. So I think there's a good chance that
Winton: mass mobilization is going to play an important and necessary, but not sufficient
Winton: in like in getting something done about it.
Winton: Thank you. Thank you, Leonard. Thanks. We've got Gary up next online.
Winton: You'll need to unmute. Gary.
Gary Dean: yeah, I'm muted.
Gary Dean: Okay, II just. I guess I want to talk about the politics and political action
Gary Dean: background. I was sort of born into the industrial left
Gary Dean: in Perth pretty many decades ago
Gary Dean: started, but what would be called a, I guess union activism in my late teens. And basically, for more than 20 years I was
Gary Dean: associated with the the labor movement, including 10 years as a as a
Gary Dean: a political backroom boy for the for the Federal Alp
Gary Dean: during in particular, during the the Hawk Key team. Yes.
Gary Dean: what II guess I want to say is that you know that there can be an over focus on on party politics
Gary Dean: and the ability of politicians to actually do anything
Gary Dean: more than anything else. In in my view, it. It's
Gary Dean: deep cultural change that needs to happen. It's just not a matter of trying to legislate problems out of the way that never works. It never has.
Gary Dean: Cultures need to change it. To change. You need discourse. No. And and
obviously the
Gary Dean: the quality of today's discourse is not on the various narratives. Is not a very high quality.
Gary Dean: And I think the activity, I mean, certainly, you know, local activity. Local activism is is really important.
Gary Dean: But changing cultures, changing people's minds, actually going to the effort of changing people's minds. Take takes a lot more time. And it's just not a matter of taught at people or legislating against them, but but actually changing the culture
Gary Dean: and this this. This involves this involves effort. Of course, it's a lot harder than just passing a laurel
Gary Dean: implementing a policy.
Gary Dean: So yeah, II just want to sort of just high highlight the the importance of
Gary Dean: what I call discourse, basically engagement in in, in the world, and and basically as as a
Gary Dean: as an active agent rather than you know
Gary Dean: somebody possibly doing Buddhist things.
Gary Dean: Yeah, okay, that's that's all I want to say.
Winton: Thanks. Thank you. Gary, thanks.
Winton: John. Here.
Winton: thanks. Also. Gary. Sometimes I've found that the
Winton: the focus to change culture, be it in an organization or in a community,
Winton: is best done. And focusing on changing behaviour. Put that aside.
Winton: I was thinking Winton about, you know.
Winton: communications and the techniques and technology and some of the other commons. And maybe this is just the bleeding obvious.
Winton: But 2 things. One is
Winton: engaging experts. and paying for really good, quite
Winton: high quality expertise.
Winton: They're really good creative advertising people out there. They're really good creative public relations, people and communications experts.
Winton: So we shouldn't be thinking that we've got to do all this. You know ourselves.
Winton: There, there is a role for bringing in expert advice.
Winton: And and you're contracting the service. You control the project, brief, etc.
Winton: But I think it's got to be in the context of strategy.
Winton: So the conversation we're having over the last few days, and
Winton: I've dealt into the origins of the word strata strategy, and one of them is the Greek definition of which is sort of strategos
Winton: which been translated into English, is not very good. Translation
Winton: really means the general on the hill.
Winton: so the art of strategy is to be thinking much, much further ahead, and then working backwards to say what in the near term will actually contribute to the long term
Winton: that goes beyond what the populace might see today, as the first year will decline, and then we've got a success or failure there, but keeping an eye on the overall strategy.
Winton: And and it's almost a little bit like, you know, taking a leaf out of Macaveli's book and
Winton: and out of war, etc. to really, you know, discipline, way. Ho! Articulate your your strategy, and then your tactics. But taking that over the general over the hill view now I know that that
Winton: money doesn't grow on trees, to be going to go and engage trusted experts in the marketplace to do this.
Winton: So maybe one of the considerations of strategies to start thinking about getting a favourite philanthropist.
Winton: To bankroll this type of investment as well. We don't have to do it all ourselves. I mean, if we've got something really important to do with our health, we don't try and just cure ourselves. We will
Winton: generally go and
Winton: look to an expert to assist us. So I think there's some
Winton: synergy with with the strategy and tactics. Discussion. You know, from and everything else to be talking about this week.
Winton: Thanks, John.
Winton: Yeah, it's Anna here. And yeah, I'm very interested in that, John. But
Winton: the conversations I'm having, especially from overseas, is that it's now really unfashionable to accept experts, opinions
Winton: that this information, etc. Is just going out of fashion. People aren't interested. But I'm still on your team. It's just what I've heard
Winton: belong to an organization called climate for change, and they have a theory of change that involves
Winton: well, the famous spell curve. Really that you know, you get some idea it might be. I don't know. Seat belts or recycling. And to start with, it's slow. 2 or 3 people, 8 people, 1624, you know, on it, and then it and and so their theory of change really is
Winton: is dependent on the fact that most people are affected by someone they know and trust.
Winton: So conversations is what has led to the fastest change that we've seen in our society people talking to people they know and trust, and then they talk to someone, etc.
Winton: So with climate for change, they have, you know. Morning tea's coffee morning, a little bit like the Tupperware model where you start conversations. And these conversations are asking people what's important to them.
Winton: not telling them things. A lot of people aren't doing anything because they're a little bit confused. So you tell them about 6 things that are actually facts about what's happening with the climate
Winton: you tell them this. And then, you know, we show a bit of a movie. But we get a conversation going. And from that conversation. People shift.
Winton: Then we ask someone from that meeting to hold another coffee morning, and on we go spreading. So after 6 meetings you've influenced 64 people, and you know
Winton: that and we don't work with people who are disbelievers or who climate deniers. You know, there's this gradation of people from, you know it goes from confused to distress, to alert, to alarmed to action.
Winton: So if you're talking to someone who's a bit distressed, your aim would just need to shift them up that curve a little bit to where they're alert. If you're talking to someone who's alert, your aim would be, etc., etc., so that you're shifting people along and you don't. And again, this is how I don't know. The whole recycling movement started from people talking to people and and that's their idea of social change within the short years we have of getting everyone on board
Winton: and sharing your ideas. You know I do this. I grow, you know, on my verges, or I do whatever.
Winton: However, you know. Now, I don't do that anymore, because,
Winton: you know, I believe we've got very little time, and I guess, unlike some people have said, I think we have to really work politically. We have to
Winton: write letters, sit on the doorsteps of Mps. And you know, there's examples of where this has really worked, actually.
Winton: and if not, to, you know, to contribute to that mass movement because it's going to be a lot of people like all revolutions. What is it? 3 point something rather. This is statistic that
Winton: Erin Chernoys came up with. If 3.5% of the population
Winton: are out on the streets are protesting, it has a big effect. It has brought about very quick social change. So I just thought I'd mention that that at minimum.
Winton: speak with others and set good examples and talk to people.
Winton: Thank you, Anna.
There you go.
Winton: Hello! Now, Mamie.
Winton: So what I want to talk about is connectedness.
Winton: And as a
Winton: old activist.
Winton: and I think that
Winton: in on reflection, that's been
Winton: more important than I realized at the time.
Winton: So a lot of our actions did include a lot of things that have mentioned been mentioned. Some of us were on the streets, some of us were in the media, some of us were working politically and
Winton: some of us were working legally, but we all were aware and
Winton: of each other, and we all valued what each one other word was doing, and we all saw each other as being essential to the outcome.
Winton: And I think this feeling of connectedness was the thing that probably kept us going.
Winton: and I think that it's important to remember there are so many people
Winton: that are doing so many different things, and to feel and
Winton: to feel connected. And perhaps that's by finding out
Winton: that who they are and what they're doing, and maybe not joining every group, but joining where you have the expertise or the time, or whatever you have the inclination, but never losing sight, that there are many people.
Winton: and that connection strengthens all of us. And that's why I suppose I've had started when I was a high school student, and I'm now 72. And so it's kept me going.
Winton: Thank you.
Winton: Thank you. Amy
Winton: may maybe go on to be the last cause. We
Winton: need to have a bit of a break before the 4 30. What to do? It seems we're almost into that discussion now. But perhaps if you could just speak, and then we'll I'll be as as brief as I can. Just one or 2 reflections that bounce off things people have been saying. I worked in health promotion for many years. I saw seatbelt legislation coming in. I saw smoking, going down.
Winton: There were in both cases there were 2 parallel processes that interacted. One was building a climate of opinion in the community which enabled legislators to do bold things.
Winton: and the other thing was being very smart about the bold things that the legislators did so. The strategy is there in terms of the bold things that the legislators did
Winton: the health promotion. People were very assiduous at building, at doing completely useless things, like renowned drink, driving courses for people who've been arrested. Drink driving didn't do any good, but it got in the paper. It created opinion and and people went. So I think both are important, and particularly the sort of long-term developments you're talking about. Connection maintaining the links are incredibly important.
Winton: but the second one is the
Winton: that when we think particularly about the political action, and I'm not particularly smart on this, but I do a little bit through religious response to climate change
Winton: was recently part of an interfaith delegation that went and met with ministers in Canberra. My overwhelming impression. Talking to Chris Bowen and others was.
Winton: we didn't know what we should be doing and asking for. Should we be pushing them to do more?
Winton: Should we be supporting them for what they're doing? Should we be making allowance for the things that they were doing? But haven't told us yet? And there was a very big announcement from Chris Bowen the following week, so I'm glad we were nice to him. And
Winton: to what extent should we be sympathizing with them and saying, We are your supporters.
Winton: and there are different views in the people who came in the group, but my overwhelming impression was that supporting people in what they were doing
Winton: and putting ourselves forward as support supporters for bold action and allowing quite a bit of leeway was actually important. If we weren't going to be seen justice, basically as pests.
Winton: So this, that. And the third one, I would just say, and this undermines the strategy. Is that because the world of climate and climate response.
Winton: and the technology and the finance, and so on, is changing so rapidly. I don't think we have a clue. The pathway to change. I don't think we know whether it's in the boardrooms, whether it's in the laboratories, whether it's on the street, whether it's through cop.
Winton: And so I really do think we have to have a very, very open mind
Winton: as to the usefulness of what we do and where we're actually going to see the progress coming, and I suspect when it does come it's going to surprise us all.
Winton: Thank you. Thank you. Okay. Well, I think we should break for 5 min.
Winton: Come back at 4 30, as previously advertised. and then we can.