WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.130 --> 00:00:07.799 Teachers: we have a couple of of questions, and 2 00:00:08.290 --> 00:00:33.799 Teachers: the first one is, what is the significance? No Buddhist symbols and iconography at the venue or on any of the program materials. And a follow-up question, is this the way forward for secular Buddhism? It's not quite clear whether this means the absence of symbols, or whether this kind of format we'll take it loosely as both. 3 00:00:35.560 --> 00:00:42.379 Teachers: Do you want to say something about that? No. 4 00:00:42.600 --> 00:00:48.679 Lenore, not until after you've given your blow. Okay? 5 00:00:50.120 --> 00:00:56.129 Teachers: Well, I mean, one answer is because we're in a Catholic center. 6 00:00:56.340 --> 00:01:03.939 Teachers: If this had been a Buddhist center, if we'd rented a space in the Buddhist center, we would have all the Buddhist stuff around, and it wouldn't have been a problem. 7 00:01:04.950 --> 00:01:15.290 Teachers: There is a I think, but without anything like that, and with the respect for our Catholic hosts, then 8 00:01:15.590 --> 00:01:17.600 Teachers: we're quite happy 9 00:01:17.960 --> 00:01:21.740 Teachers: to be here, and I think secularity 10 00:01:21.760 --> 00:01:27.469 Teachers: in a way I like to think of as a space of tolerance. 11 00:01:27.540 --> 00:01:28.840 Teachers: of toleration. 12 00:01:29.940 --> 00:01:33.480 Teachers: The secular approach is not against religion. 13 00:01:33.700 --> 00:01:39.949 Teachers: A secular approach is one in which we're happy for all religions to coexist 14 00:01:39.960 --> 00:01:49.629 Teachers: and interact. And a secular perspective is one that can hold those differences rather than get into conflict one between the other. 15 00:01:50.320 --> 00:01:56.100 Teachers: But if this were to be a space which didn't have any preexisting 16 00:01:56.330 --> 00:02:01.790 Teachers: Catholic or Buddhist symbology. I think we simply wouldn't have anything. 17 00:02:02.580 --> 00:02:12.130 Teachers: and at least that's my opinion. Again, secular. Buddhism is not a school with doctrines, and it's a work in progress. 18 00:02:12.150 --> 00:02:16.830 Teachers: and different people have different senses of it. But for myself. 19 00:02:16.940 --> 00:02:24.789 Teachers: just as for me. A secular Buddhist approach means going back to the sources. 20 00:02:25.040 --> 00:02:51.190 Teachers: the early sources of Buddhist teaching. As we find, particularly in the Pali tradition, it's about recovering something that I feel at some level has been lost. It's been buried by the weight of orthodoxy and metaphysics and complicated beliefs and rituals and priesthoods and hierarchies. A secular approach to the Dharma is about 21 00:02:51.470 --> 00:03:02.309 Teachers: politely suspending all of the superstructure. and trying to get back to where the ground is on which that superstructure was built. 22 00:03:02.410 --> 00:03:11.129 Teachers: Hence the return to the early text, and hence also the usage of 23 00:03:11.550 --> 00:03:19.229 Teachers: a form of of historical criticism that is very much a feature of our 24 00:03:20.150 --> 00:03:27.789 Teachers: post-enlightenment way of thinking in the West. In other words, we don't see Buddhism as some kind of timeless 25 00:03:27.800 --> 00:03:36.719 Teachers: teaching that never changes, and that just has to be preserved. But we see Buddhism very crucially, as something that 26 00:03:36.930 --> 00:03:48.240 Teachers: emerges and develops and changes and grows and declines because of the particular circumstances in which it finds itself. 27 00:03:49.740 --> 00:03:54.970 Teachers: But just as we go back to, or I go back to these early 28 00:03:55.340 --> 00:04:00.899 Teachers: texts, and and to find another ground from which to begin. I also 29 00:04:01.290 --> 00:04:11.049 Teachers: honor very much the earliest examples of Buddhist architecture and art as we find them 30 00:04:11.250 --> 00:04:13.449 Teachers: primarily in India. 31 00:04:14.410 --> 00:04:22.410 Teachers: As you know, Buddhism was pretty much. and of 32 00:04:22.590 --> 00:04:38.259 Teachers: Buddhism pretty much went extinct. By about the thirteenth or fourteenth centuries in India the temples were destroyed, partly by Islamic invasion, partly by resurgent Romanical Hinduism and Buddhism died out. 33 00:04:38.660 --> 00:04:46.180 Teachers: and hence we have very, very few structures or images or statues 34 00:04:47.030 --> 00:04:51.960 Teachers: that have survived from the Indian subcontinent. 35 00:04:52.010 --> 00:05:15.360 Teachers: and the oldest of those we find in a number of what are called rock cut temples, or sometimes they're called cave temples, the most famous of which are places like Ajanta and Elora, Kahla, Barja, Bedsa, Kanheri, and other places in India, where we find the remains 36 00:05:15.550 --> 00:05:31.880 Teachers: of Buddhist temples that go back about 2,000 years, in other words to the period about between 4, from about 400 years after the Buddhist death, to about 500 years around the time of Christ. 37 00:05:32.020 --> 00:05:38.319 Teachers: and remarkably, there are a number of such sites in India. 38 00:05:39.110 --> 00:05:41.260 Teachers: Where we can actually see 39 00:05:41.420 --> 00:05:48.860 Teachers: very clearly how the spaces that the early Buddhists created. 40 00:05:48.970 --> 00:05:51.689 Teachers: and those spaces the earliest ones 41 00:05:52.280 --> 00:05:56.410 Teachers: are striking because they are an iconic. 42 00:05:56.630 --> 00:05:59.249 Teachers: which means there are no Buddha images. 43 00:06:00.280 --> 00:06:14.680 Teachers: There is no attempt to represent the Buddha in a human or in a divine form. Instead, you find traditional. In most of them 44 00:06:14.710 --> 00:06:24.330 Teachers: you find large halls with pillars going around the inside or 45 00:06:24.410 --> 00:06:36.880 Teachers: walkway, and you find in the apps, as it were, the the curved end, a very, very simple stupor, which is comprised just of a cylinder. 46 00:06:37.050 --> 00:06:41.289 Teachers: the sphere in a cube. and that's it. 47 00:06:42.650 --> 00:06:56.130 Teachers: Now these may have been painted, we can't tell, it's too much time has gone by, but the fact is that when you enter these spaces and some of them, even though they're 2,000 years old, are in almost perfect condition. 48 00:06:56.190 --> 00:07:05.889 Teachers: for the simple reason that you can't destroy a void. These are empty spaces that have been. They haven't been built. They've been excavated. 49 00:07:06.310 --> 00:07:18.059 Teachers: so there's nothing you can knock down. There's nothing you can, nothing that can fall down the pillars that go around the edges of the temples serve no structural purpose whatsoever 50 00:07:18.250 --> 00:07:22.740 Teachers: could take them all out. Nothing would happen. They're there to replicate 51 00:07:22.970 --> 00:07:38.189 Teachers: through excavation what it would be like to be in a Buddhist temple that was freestanding and built out of stone and brick and thatch, and whatever. And I find these spaces immensely inspiring 52 00:07:38.400 --> 00:07:52.049 Teachers: because they return us basically to a spiritual or religious or sacred, or whatever you call it, space that didn't require any iconography or images or pictures. 53 00:07:53.340 --> 00:07:55.229 Teachers: When you go to a Janta 54 00:07:55.380 --> 00:08:18.840 Teachers: Ajanta was built in 2 phases, first phase, starting about the first century BC. In which this completely an iconic, and then later phases that go up to about the eighth century RAD. And there they are, just packed with images and icons and carvings on the walls, and it's just like almost a sort of 55 00:08:18.840 --> 00:08:27.970 Teachers: almost a sort of psychedelic excess of imagery. So you can actually see the history of Buddhism, carved in stone 56 00:08:28.100 --> 00:08:31.160 Teachers: from the absence of icons to the 57 00:08:31.400 --> 00:08:34.200 Teachers: excess of icons. 58 00:08:34.230 --> 00:08:47.620 Teachers: So to me, a secular Buddhism could perhaps be inspired by returning to these these an iconic, very simple open spaces. 59 00:08:51.600 --> 00:09:09.290 Teachers: Is this the way forward for secular Buddhism? Maybe I don't know. Do you want to, either of you say something about that. So yeah. no one have anything. I'd just add my usual lens through which I look at these things is, how does it help? 60 00:09:09.550 --> 00:09:14.430 Teachers: So if we were to have a bunch of 61 00:09:14.470 --> 00:09:19.239 Teachers: Buddhist iconography here, what? What impact would that have? 62 00:09:19.480 --> 00:09:30.939 Teachers: How would that help? And I'm always apropos our conversation just now I'm always alert to the possibility that it can drive identity, forming 63 00:09:31.530 --> 00:09:33.830 Teachers: identity, forming 64 00:09:34.640 --> 00:09:40.340 Teachers: so selfing. I've been really conscious ever since I started exploring Madama. 65 00:09:40.410 --> 00:09:53.279 Teachers: of any time that I've considered adding any kind of statue or picture, or anything that identifies me as a Buddhist. 66 00:09:53.590 --> 00:09:58.990 Teachers: and I've just been really not to say I don't have any. I do have a small little one that sits on my desk at home, and one 67 00:09:59.350 --> 00:10:00.949 Teachers: another one, but 68 00:10:01.360 --> 00:10:09.120 Teachers: really really watchful, for I think it's very, very easy for selfing to to ride in on the coat tails 69 00:10:09.360 --> 00:10:10.290 Teachers: of 70 00:10:11.520 --> 00:10:13.920 Teachers: of statues and off and 71 00:10:14.600 --> 00:10:20.099 Teachers: bumper stickers, and you know you name it so? Not necessarily. But just 72 00:10:20.440 --> 00:10:23.790 Teachers: how does it help disabled for each 73 00:10:23.910 --> 00:10:35.710 Teachers: hang on a second? Hang on a second. Hi, I'm Peter. You're talking about the physical objects regards 74 00:10:35.820 --> 00:10:42.510 Teachers: identifying you. But don't the subjects that you 75 00:10:42.840 --> 00:10:50.610 Teachers: are intrigued by, and the subjects you talk about, and the words you use self, you 76 00:10:50.650 --> 00:10:52.060 Teachers: as a Buddhist. 77 00:10:53.700 --> 00:10:56.069 Teachers: So 78 00:10:56.310 --> 00:11:03.890 Teachers: I'm not sure anybody else can self me. I think it's very much an internal process. Okay, so 79 00:11:04.170 --> 00:11:20.389 Teachers: if you, if you're using a physical object on your desk, and we could look at Lunori and say, he's a Buddhist, because he has these on a desk. That's one way we identify you as a Buddhist. But if you use Buddhist terminology, if you use Buddhist 80 00:11:20.540 --> 00:11:23.760 Teachers: ethics, if you use, then. 81 00:11:24.120 --> 00:11:27.910 Teachers: by default, you're self-em as Buddhist. 82 00:11:28.150 --> 00:11:36.410 Teachers: so what's wrong with that? Yeah, I don't. I don't know that I agree with you, Peter. I think the process of 83 00:11:37.100 --> 00:11:47.739 Teachers: using a certain language. I mean, that can just come to be the way that you think, and the way that you understand, and the way that you describe. And, to be honest. 84 00:11:48.590 --> 00:11:53.700 Teachers: I wouldn't use even those kind of terms if I'm talking to a non-buddhist. 85 00:11:53.990 --> 00:12:03.430 Teachers: Whereas if I was, if I was selfing around Buddhism, if I was thinking, you know it's sort of making me feel good to be a Buddhist, and I want to project that in my knee. Brush out there. 86 00:12:03.680 --> 00:12:09.610 Teachers: I might actually drop in a few esoteric terms to my non Buddhist friends. 87 00:12:09.740 --> 00:12:21.139 Teachers: you know, to show them that I'm a bit of spiritual Bizo, whereas I really don't do that, and I try to 88 00:12:21.590 --> 00:12:31.990 Teachers: speak as straightforwardly as I can. Even in Sangha. I mean, I've got a couple of Sangha members here. They might comment on that, but I guess I'm just putting it out there. 89 00:12:33.460 --> 00:12:50.339 Teachers: Such a big problem to self for a start. But that's another conversation. But just by our actions it's it's it's almost impossible not to project like you're selling a book. It's not about invertebrates. 90 00:12:51.230 --> 00:12:52.470 Teachers: It's about 91 00:12:52.780 --> 00:12:57.609 Teachers: Buddhism. So we see your name on that book. 92 00:12:57.820 --> 00:13:04.350 Teachers: So that's not a statue. It's just another form of selfthing. 93 00:13:04.550 --> 00:13:15.820 Teachers: That's the way I see. Yes, the way I see it is. It's only selfing. If I am trying to consolidate. construct, promote an identity. And I'm not doing that with that book 94 00:13:17.090 --> 00:13:24.009 Teachers: I'm offering a that was an act of self that was an act of compassion. 95 00:13:24.190 --> 00:13:25.560 Teachers: Yeah. 96 00:13:32.430 --> 00:13:33.810 Teachers: let's go. 97 00:13:33.940 --> 00:13:42.030 Teachers: My name's John. I'm not sure if you've got other burning questions. Ca, we have one other. Yeah, just while we're on this theme. 98 00:13:42.530 --> 00:13:53.560 Teachers: and the fact that going back to Socrates X. Number of 1,000 years. what? Why, we only going back that far 99 00:13:53.620 --> 00:14:08.610 Teachers: because it just rang a Bell Stephen, when you talked about the places in India. And yet we go around Australia. There are examples of rock art that's 40, 50, 60,000 years old. 100 00:14:09.140 --> 00:14:21.039 Teachers: and we somehow are missing a whole lot of Pre Christ pre-buda spirituality 101 00:14:21.800 --> 00:14:25.850 that could be quite enlightening. 102 00:14:27.080 --> 00:14:39.269 Teachers: No, I take that point, and, in fact, close to where we live. In France we have Lascaux and all of the great Magdalen period, prehistoric art which I love. 103 00:14:39.930 --> 00:14:45.059 Teachers: But and that goes back 24 up to 40,000 years old. 104 00:14:46.250 --> 00:14:48.799 Teachers: But I don't quite see that in the same. 105 00:14:48.980 --> 00:14:55.289 Teachers: Frey I'm trying to. I'm considering this question 106 00:14:55.300 --> 00:14:57.129 Teachers: primarily in terms of 107 00:14:57.160 --> 00:15:02.680 Teachers: of the Buddhist tradition, which doesn't go back further than 2.5,000 years. 108 00:15:02.810 --> 00:15:17.550 Teachers: So I frame it very much. In that case. what I like. What I find meaningful about the early Buddhist material is that it is an attempt to give shape and form to a tradition of which I feel 109 00:15:17.620 --> 00:15:24.830 Teachers: you know a part. It's something that is deep in the history of the tradition to which I feel 110 00:15:25.410 --> 00:15:27.390 Teachers: that I belong in some way. 111 00:15:27.550 --> 00:15:29.870 Teachers: What I love about the 112 00:15:30.030 --> 00:15:35.910 Teachers: particularly the prehistoric art that we find in Southwest France is, that 113 00:15:36.080 --> 00:15:40.519 Teachers: is, that you find yourself before these beautiful works of art. 114 00:15:40.780 --> 00:15:43.980 Teachers: and you find your mind wanting to 115 00:15:44.380 --> 00:15:46.500 Teachers: saying, why do they do it? 116 00:15:47.170 --> 00:15:52.219 Teachers: What does it mean? And that I find? And of course there's no way of knowing. 117 00:15:52.650 --> 00:16:01.629 Teachers: It's endless speculation amongst experts so-called. The reality is, you're confronted with something that is undeniably human. 118 00:16:01.670 --> 00:16:26.819 Teachers: And but some of the very first evidence of of human artifacts. And yet you cannot satisfy that craving to know why. And so you're confronted with something that is fundamental, fundamentally mysterious. And yet it still speaks to you as a human being at a very, very deep level. In other words, it allows a kind of wordless astonishment and wonder. 119 00:16:27.030 --> 00:16:41.610 Teachers: And that has you know, I think, a very, very powerful impact. And I agree with you. I think it's important that we tap back into the deep roots of human culture which once again go back to pre-modern 120 00:16:41.630 --> 00:16:51.339 Teachers: cultures. Any of the religions we currently know, but that to me is a different experience to the experience I would find in one of these temples in India. 121 00:16:56.550 --> 00:17:00.039 Meg: Okay. 122 00:17:00.050 --> 00:17:06.910 Meg: Hello! Should we continue with this? 123 00:17:07.250 --> 00:17:25.139 Meg: We can't hear you, Suzanne. Can you hear me now? Okay, thank you. And thank you all. I'm gonna my questions a little different back to some of the earlier talk this afternoon about uncertainty 124 00:17:25.359 --> 00:17:31.049 Meg: and and the talk, the talk, the 2 talks I've heard this afternoon. 125 00:17:31.070 --> 00:17:51.529 Meg: The concern about like a certainty and uncertainty, and the and the issues of coming to grips with that, and so on. But I think one of the key themes this week is we are faced with the most appalling and powerful uncertainties. Through climate change. 126 00:17:51.770 --> 00:18:03.989 Meg: where, like as human beings, we've always lived with degrees of uncertainty. In Australia, we're familiar with things like. you know, floods, fires, droughts, and so on. Where? 127 00:18:04.010 --> 00:18:16.960 Meg: But now I'm coming from, Adelaide. We can't. We can't be that certain anymore that the Jacaranda trees are going to keep, you know, flowering in November. 128 00:18:17.170 --> 00:18:23.539 Meg: So my question is, in a sense, how do we now live with 129 00:18:23.560 --> 00:18:32.749 Meg: this much more egregious huge? Certainly, which is causing, as you know, as you all have talked about 130 00:18:32.760 --> 00:18:52.789 Meg: distress, dismay, despair, but also whole range of new activism that is incredibly encouraging as well. And I'd like I'd like to hear your at least little bit of some thoughts on how we're facing that. That 131 00:18:52.900 --> 00:18:56.780 Meg: such a powerful amount of uncertainty now. thanks. 132 00:18:57.980 --> 00:19:19.769 Teachers: well, we're actually kind of at time. Unfortunately, would it be possible, Suzanne, to hold that question until tomorrow? This session was aimed at burning questions that people had sent us, either by the zoom or by the box here. 133 00:19:19.770 --> 00:19:32.810 Teachers: Your question is a very important one, and perhaps we could each briefly comment on it now. But I think to have a more reflective answer. It might be best to hold that 134 00:19:32.860 --> 00:19:38.920 Teachers: tomorrow. It's not a thing that's going to go away. We're not going to go talking about something else. So that's not a problem. 135 00:19:39.620 --> 00:19:42.259 Teachers: Would one of Winton, would you like to? 136 00:19:43.170 --> 00:19:48.730 Just to say very briefly. what we were talking about this afternoon was 137 00:19:49.890 --> 00:20:01.210 Teachers: the need to respond to the situation, however horrendous it might seem 138 00:20:01.280 --> 00:20:04.140 Teachers: later in later in this portrayal. 139 00:20:04.320 --> 00:20:07.569 Teachers: I'll be talking a bit about strategy and tactics. 140 00:20:07.680 --> 00:20:13.989 Teachers: And I think we we really do need to be tactical. It needs to establish 141 00:20:14.250 --> 00:20:18.159 Teachers: mobilisation going on the testing. Again. 142 00:20:19.220 --> 00:20:26.970 Teachers: I would change ecological discussion and absolutely unsustainable 143 00:20:27.700 --> 00:20:28.710 Teachers: social 144 00:20:29.110 --> 00:20:34.819 Teachers: inequality, the horizontal dimension of inequality. And 145 00:20:35.060 --> 00:20:40.050 Teachers: it's great that there's that mobilization. It's essential that there is that mobilization. 146 00:20:40.190 --> 00:20:45.900 Teachers: But there really does need to be a strategy for taking down 147 00:20:46.470 --> 00:20:48.449 Teachers: courses that are created. 148 00:20:53.960 --> 00:20:58.880 Teachers: So I will. That's a bit easier. But I think I'll 149 00:20:58.980 --> 00:21:01.609 Teachers: but visibly there. So if you don't want to. 150 00:21:01.630 --> 00:21:05.069 Teachers: I want to present this to tactically 151 00:21:06.110 --> 00:21:07.010 high-risk 152 00:21:08.680 --> 00:21:15.689 Teachers: echo. What I said before is. 153 00:21:15.960 --> 00:21:18.240 Teachers: it's unpleasant and 154 00:21:18.940 --> 00:21:20.400 Teachers: respond anyway. 155 00:21:21.280 --> 00:21:32.430 Teachers: I actually through the course of writing my talks for this week, I said to my husband last week, and I've been an environmental supporter forever. 156 00:21:33.150 --> 00:21:37.889 Teachers: And I said to my husband last week. I think we need to do more. 157 00:21:38.540 --> 00:21:45.339 Teachers: and I probably already do more than the average person on the street in terms of my own personal choices. 158 00:21:45.630 --> 00:21:50.700 Teachers: but just the act of looking at it closely and 159 00:21:51.320 --> 00:21:56.070 Teachers: acting anyway, even though it's uncomfortable and uncertain, and 160 00:21:57.770 --> 00:21:59.380 Teachers: we don't know if it will work. 161 00:22:06.840 --> 00:22:13.630 Teachers: Okay. So thank you very much, Suzanne. We'll come back to that point and 162 00:22:14.670 --> 00:22:15.690 come on. 163 00:22:16.620 --> 00:22:26.799 Teachers: And now we have a final tip. So we're going to have a final tip. Maybe you'd like to stand up and shake yourselves around a bit. So some of the stiffness from.