WEBVTT

1
00:00:01.200 --> 00:00:02.000
Winton & Lenore: Add.

2
00:00:02.250 --> 00:00:07.839
Winton & Lenore: I thought I'd bring. Since I've been promising to say something about strategy and tactics

3
00:00:08.360 --> 00:00:11.799
Winton & Lenore: to do with the crises that we're facing

4
00:00:12.750 --> 00:00:13.440
at

5
00:00:13.830 --> 00:00:18.669
Winton & Lenore: climate change, environmental dispoliation, and social inequity.

6
00:00:19.740 --> 00:00:21.859
Winton & Lenore: I thought I'd bring the

7
00:00:23.190 --> 00:00:27.980
Winton & Lenore: an introduction to this issue forward, and

8
00:00:28.570 --> 00:00:33.089
Winton & Lenore: I'm not going to be presenting any final answers or anything but

9
00:00:33.290 --> 00:00:38.240
Winton & Lenore: I want. I'd like to start by introducing you to

10
00:00:39.620 --> 00:00:41.650
Winton & Lenore: a very reliable

11
00:00:42.910 --> 00:00:44.240
advisor

12
00:00:44.560 --> 00:00:51.740
Winton & Lenore: I've got in my brain. and his name is Nicolo Machiavelli.

13
00:00:53.380 --> 00:00:58.120
Winton & Lenore: He's dead now, but but he still speaks to me.

14
00:00:59.310 --> 00:01:06.080
Winton & Lenore:  Machiavelli is a member of a very long

15
00:01:06.120 --> 00:01:11.070
Winton & Lenore: lineage in political philosophy called civic republicanism.

16
00:01:11.780 --> 00:01:16.089
Winton & Lenore: You can trace it back beyond Aristotle to

17
00:01:16.520 --> 00:01:24.720
Winton & Lenore: probably Pericles funeral oration during the Peloponnesian wars in Athens, but certainly includes

18
00:01:25.560 --> 00:01:32.700
Winton & Lenore: it. It it, and includes quite a few of the Greeks like Aristotle.

19
00:01:33.420 --> 00:01:38.299
Winton & Lenore: and it all goes right up to the present day.

20
00:01:39.310 --> 00:01:40.330
Probably

21
00:01:40.600 --> 00:01:44.989
Winton & Lenore: the best living example of it is the

22
00:01:45.290 --> 00:01:49.639
Winton & Lenore: popular American political philosopher, Michael Sandel, who

23
00:01:49.800 --> 00:01:54.950
Winton & Lenore: was out here in recent years for the Sydney Film Festival, Sydney

24
00:01:55.090 --> 00:01:56.419
writer's festival.

25
00:01:57.370 --> 00:01:59.800
Winton & Lenore: anyway. met

26
00:02:00.140 --> 00:02:07.860
Winton & Lenore: what this tradition is all about is precisely raise public how.

27
00:02:09.050 --> 00:02:14.790
Winton & Lenore: which is Latin for public affairs, literally public things. But

28
00:02:14.930 --> 00:02:27.729
Winton & Lenore: public affairs. and and the basic proposition of civic republicanism is that anything that concerns the public

29
00:02:27.780 --> 00:02:31.950
Winton & Lenore: should be transacted, transacted by the public in public.

30
00:02:33.040 --> 00:02:39.579
Winton & Lenore: and this was essentially a working principle in Athenian democracy.

31
00:02:39.910 --> 00:02:47.969
It involved active citizenship. Citizens were expected to remain abreast

32
00:02:48.170 --> 00:02:54.349
Winton & Lenore: of issues facing the community and to vote on them and to discuss them in the agora.

33
00:02:54.830 --> 00:02:56.770
Public places.

34
00:02:56.870 --> 00:03:01.870
Winton & Lenore: So this was the concept of freedom

35
00:03:01.990 --> 00:03:12.759
Winton & Lenore: that civic republicanism is on about. It's a positive freedom to express views and take action

36
00:03:12.900 --> 00:03:18.030
Winton & Lenore: collectively over issues facing the community facing.

37
00:03:18.150 --> 00:03:21.720
Winton & Lenore: But whatever collectivity we're concerned about.

38
00:03:22.560 --> 00:03:26.329
Winton & Lenore: so this is an active freedom, a freedom to

39
00:03:26.440 --> 00:03:30.379
Winton & Lenore: take action, to say things, to be part of

40
00:03:32.130 --> 00:03:42.579
Winton & Lenore: decision-making quite different from the the rival conception of freedoms, a liberal conception of freedom which means simply

41
00:03:42.620 --> 00:03:45.669
Winton & Lenore: freedom from freedom from

42
00:03:46.200 --> 00:03:51.100
Winton & Lenore: arbitrary interference. So you could have.

43
00:03:51.940 --> 00:03:57.010
Winton & Lenore: you know you. You could have liberal freedoms in a totally autocratic

44
00:03:57.510 --> 00:03:58.519
regime.

45
00:03:58.920 --> 00:04:07.120
Winton & Lenore: But there's no way you could have Republican freedom in an autocratic regime. So

46
00:04:07.550 --> 00:04:13.659
Winton & Lenore: the opposite from the Republican point of view, the opposite of the kind of

47
00:04:14.050 --> 00:04:17.230
Winton & Lenore: set up there they and they

48
00:04:17.450 --> 00:04:22.659
Winton & Lenore: advocate is tyranny. Tyranny is

49
00:04:22.820 --> 00:04:25.050
Winton & Lenore: the bad guy in this

50
00:04:25.170 --> 00:04:27.710
Winton & Lenore: way of looking at

51
00:04:27.730 --> 00:04:28.990
Winton & Lenore: political art

52
00:04:29.390 --> 00:04:34.749
Winton & Lenore: and tyranny essentially means that you've got

53
00:04:35.150 --> 00:04:35.850
Winton & Lenore: okay.

54
00:04:35.980 --> 00:04:37.210
A tyrant

55
00:04:37.570 --> 00:04:40.040
Winton & Lenore: who privatizes

56
00:04:40.850 --> 00:04:43.310
public public affairs.

57
00:04:43.420 --> 00:04:44.840
Winton & Lenore: who regards

58
00:04:45.030 --> 00:04:52.849
Winton & Lenore: the community and its assets as his private faith. And he doesn't have to.

59
00:04:53.350 --> 00:04:57.130
He doesn't have to consult anyone else. He doesn't even have to tell him what he's doing.

60
00:04:57.220 --> 00:05:01.910
Winton & Lenore: Okay? So that that is what the counterpole

61
00:05:02.050 --> 00:05:03.010
Winton & Lenore: to

62
00:05:03.310 --> 00:05:11.150
Winton & Lenore: to civic republicanism. It's also pretty much associated with.

63
00:05:11.480 --> 00:05:18.219
Winton & Lenore: Patriotism. Again, going back to Pericles. Famous speech, famous funeral duration.

64
00:05:18.760 --> 00:05:21.099
and you find it most

65
00:05:21.110 --> 00:05:24.249
Winton & Lenore: civic republican figures, including Machiavelli.

66
00:05:24.750 --> 00:05:25.910
Patriotism!

67
00:05:26.210 --> 00:05:29.070
Winton & Lenore: And they have a very strong.

68
00:05:29.370 --> 00:05:31.590
Winton & Lenore: very strong, emotional connection

69
00:05:31.880 --> 00:05:35.630
Winton & Lenore: to what they conceive of as being their

70
00:05:36.160 --> 00:05:37.170
there

71
00:05:37.250 --> 00:05:38.789
Winton & Lenore: home polity.

72
00:05:40.220 --> 00:05:47.679
Winton & Lenore: and like like the Greek thinkers who have been looking at.

73
00:05:48.180 --> 00:05:51.629
Winton & Lenore: they have a strong sense of

74
00:05:51.820 --> 00:05:53.430
Winton & Lenore: partial agency.

75
00:05:53.930 --> 00:06:04.279
Winton & Lenore: That there is a constant, a constant struggle going on in, and as make it really between for tuna

76
00:06:04.730 --> 00:06:11.689
Winton & Lenore: meaning fate, or you know. the intractable conditions that you face

77
00:06:12.110 --> 00:06:18.309
Winton & Lenore: virtue. So virtue is, you know, speed, courage, strength.

78
00:06:18.570 --> 00:06:23.479
Winton & Lenore: all those things whereby you can. You can

79
00:06:23.990 --> 00:06:27.089
squeeze back for tuna and create

80
00:06:27.100 --> 00:06:32.320
Winton & Lenore: a window of opportunity to get things done that that you need to get done.

81
00:06:32.870 --> 00:06:43.270
Winton & Lenore: And so Machiavelli, really and this is part that most people miss about Machiavelli is this was his. This was really

82
00:06:43.410 --> 00:06:48.580
Winton & Lenore: his starting point. He was in some ways perfectly conventional.

83
00:06:50.030 --> 00:06:51.720
civic, republican.

84
00:06:53.000 --> 00:06:57.559
Winton & Lenore: and He himself was a

85
00:06:58.220 --> 00:07:05.049
Winton & Lenore: he. He was a prefer. He was a political professional. He was a public servant in

86
00:07:06.100 --> 00:07:07.590
in Florence

87
00:07:07.940 --> 00:07:15.940
Winton & Lenore: during the end of the sixteenth into the fifteenth beginning of the sixteenth century. and.

88
00:07:17.100 --> 00:07:29.449
Winton & Lenore: as you probably all already know, he wrote one of the world's most notorious books called The Prince. and by the Prince he didn't mean, you know.

89
00:07:29.550 --> 00:07:31.549
Winton & Lenore: someone with the title prints like

90
00:07:31.600 --> 00:07:35.059
Winton & Lenore: Prince Harry or someone but a ruler.

91
00:07:35.880 --> 00:07:38.510
Winton & Lenore: Someone with real power.

92
00:07:38.850 --> 00:07:40.790
And so

93
00:07:41.990 --> 00:07:53.289
Winton & Lenore: his his training was that he was. He was a senior diplomat and advisor to the Council of 10 in his native Florence.

94
00:07:54.070 --> 00:08:07.220
Winton & Lenore: in an extremely turbulent period in Italian history. Well, you had a lot of would be princes and established princes who were constantly fighting each other.

95
00:08:07.350 --> 00:08:09.630
Winton & Lenore: There were constant territorial

96
00:08:10.430 --> 00:08:15.160
expeditions, and attempt to take over others other people's territories.

97
00:08:15.190 --> 00:08:20.090
Winton & Lenore: There were French and Spanish armies in their

98
00:08:20.390 --> 00:08:24.640
Winton & Lenore: in the mix. So it was. It was a dangerous and extremely

99
00:08:25.270 --> 00:08:26.910
turbulent time.

100
00:08:27.060 --> 00:08:34.259
Winton & Lenore: and he was employed by the the rulers of Florence, the Council of 10

101
00:08:34.549 --> 00:08:38.760
Winton & Lenore: to go out and figure out what was going on.

102
00:08:38.990 --> 00:08:43.170
Winton & Lenore: because essentially around Florence there were 2 forces

103
00:08:43.330 --> 00:08:46.180
Winton & Lenore: at Loggerhead, one was led by

104
00:08:47.660 --> 00:08:52.130
Winton & Lenore: one of these princess, called Cesare Borgia.

105
00:08:52.390 --> 00:09:00.540
Winton & Lenore: Cesare Borgia had a sister you might have heard of, called Erepsia Borgia. She was probably the world's most famous poisoner.

106
00:09:01.450 --> 00:09:02.569
and and

107
00:09:02.630 --> 00:09:14.370
Winton & Lenore: Cesare himself kept a strangler at court to deal with any enemies that fell into his clutches. and their father was the Pope

108
00:09:14.680 --> 00:09:16.890
Winton & Lenore: Alexander the Sixth.

109
00:09:17.410 --> 00:09:26.140
who basically bankrolled what they did so you could get an impression. The board ships were probably

110
00:09:26.170 --> 00:09:33.619
Winton & Lenore: the worst of the bunch were there plenty of others around who were in in the same game. So

111
00:09:33.630 --> 00:09:37.650
Winton & Lenore: the the Council of 10 sent

112
00:09:37.680 --> 00:09:40.350
Winton & Lenore: Machiavelli off 2

113
00:09:41.110 --> 00:09:43.780
Winton & Lenore: to join Cesare's court.

114
00:09:44.180 --> 00:09:56.400
Winton & Lenore: ostensibly to try and negotiate a few deals. Now Cesare was against another, and a coalition was opposed to trying to stop him because he was

115
00:09:57.270 --> 00:10:04.909
Winton & Lenore: on the offensive the whole time, and and Machiavelli was a very smart spy.

116
00:10:05.300 --> 00:10:11.339
Winton & Lenore: and he he gained Chester's confidence. He pretended to be his friend.

117
00:10:11.990 --> 00:10:15.580
and Shezero was a great narcissist, and enjoyed

118
00:10:16.040 --> 00:10:25.389
Winton & Lenore: having this as a professional. listening, keen on his every word, flattering him. and so

119
00:10:25.640 --> 00:10:31.100
Winton & Lenore: make you very carefully watched every move that says I made.

120
00:10:31.530 --> 00:10:35.960
Winton & Lenore: and remembered every utterance he uttered.

121
00:10:36.200 --> 00:10:41.390
Winton & Lenore: and every second night he would write up a very acute report.

122
00:10:41.700 --> 00:10:49.060
Winton & Lenore: and at midnight at the back door would be a bloke on a horse who would take the report back to Florence.

123
00:10:49.340 --> 00:11:00.270
Winton & Lenore: So the the people influence had an extremely professional account of what was going on the balance of forces, because

124
00:11:00.350 --> 00:11:03.479
Winton & Lenore: they didn't know what horse to back.

125
00:11:03.630 --> 00:11:11.219
Winton & Lenore: and therefore Machiavelli was essential to them. Understanding what was going on. That was Machiavelli's

126
00:11:11.270 --> 00:11:16.280
Winton & Lenore: fieldwork before he wrote the Prince.

127
00:11:18.060 --> 00:11:27.440
Winton & Lenore: What history forgets is that while he was writing the Prince a bit later he was also writing a book called Discourses on Livy

128
00:11:27.660 --> 00:11:29.569
Winton & Lenore: Libby was

129
00:11:30.320 --> 00:11:33.099
Winton & Lenore: a great Roman historian

130
00:11:33.240 --> 00:11:34.160
Winton & Lenore: around it

131
00:11:34.280 --> 00:11:37.740
Winton & Lenore: time of Christ, who had

132
00:11:37.780 --> 00:11:43.600
Winton & Lenore: had a meticulous study, particularly of the fall of the Roman Republic

133
00:11:43.960 --> 00:11:47.510
Winton & Lenore: and the rise of the Roman Empire

134
00:11:48.280 --> 00:11:52.100
Winton & Lenore: around 50 Bce.

135
00:11:52.170 --> 00:12:00.830
Winton & Lenore: So in in his discourses, Machiavelli makes absolutely clear what his. what his

136
00:12:01.650 --> 00:12:02.869
course is.

137
00:12:03.110 --> 00:12:05.950
Winton & Lenore: and it he wants to see

138
00:12:06.320 --> 00:12:07.990
Winton & Lenore: Italy united.

139
00:12:08.120 --> 00:12:12.300
Winton & Lenore: He wants all these grubs thrown into the

140
00:12:13.100 --> 00:12:25.679
Winton & Lenore: consigned to the dustbin of history. He wants that foreign armies thrown out, and he wants to establish Italy as a unified, proper, orderly republic.

141
00:12:26.820 --> 00:12:29.030
Winton & Lenore: So when

142
00:12:30.120 --> 00:12:34.619
Winton & Lenore: some character, Mitt, Matseni, and Co. In like

143
00:12:34.850 --> 00:12:39.909
Winton & Lenore: nineteenth century, 18 seventies actually managed to unite Italy.

144
00:12:40.080 --> 00:12:44.129
Winton & Lenore: His name was on their lips. He's the great patriot.

145
00:12:44.290 --> 00:12:47.369
Winton & Lenore: Great, if you like. Patriot saint

146
00:12:47.580 --> 00:12:55.150
Winton & Lenore: of Italy. It says that if you. if you go into the humblest Italian home there'll be 2 books

147
00:12:55.250 --> 00:13:00.460
Winton & Lenore: on the yeah, on the shelf. One will be the Bible.

148
00:13:00.490 --> 00:13:02.229
Winton & Lenore: the other one will be

149
00:13:02.260 --> 00:13:07.909
Winton & Lenore: Il Pinchebe. The Machiavelli's the Prince.

150
00:13:08.340 --> 00:13:13.349
Winton & Lenore: That's yeah, is the importance he has in Italian life.

151
00:13:13.830 --> 00:13:14.980
Winton & Lenore: anyway.

152
00:13:15.020 --> 00:13:25.920
Winton & Lenore: the Prince is was a contribution to a genre that was in circulation in Europe at the time, and they were called mirrors, and they

153
00:13:26.240 --> 00:13:27.720
they were

154
00:13:28.160 --> 00:13:30.220
Winton & Lenore: handbooks or manuals.

155
00:13:30.620 --> 00:13:34.130
or rulers who imagined themselves to be

156
00:13:34.190 --> 00:13:36.090
Winton & Lenore: ordained by God

157
00:13:36.400 --> 00:13:48.979
Winton & Lenore: to rule. This is a divine right of kings, and this was a manual on how to be. These manuals or manuals be how to be a good Christian ruler.

158
00:13:49.270 --> 00:13:55.130
Winton & Lenore: you know the Lord is merciful, but he's also just, and could be firm.

159
00:13:55.180 --> 00:14:00.890
Winton & Lenore: And it was, of course, a a license for absolutism.

160
00:14:01.010 --> 00:14:17.429
Winton & Lenore: So, but it was also these were with. These were kind of ways of disguising the the sheer brutality and rawness of how power was exercised. So these mirrors were

161
00:14:17.580 --> 00:14:19.180
Winton & Lenore: pictures of

162
00:14:19.340 --> 00:14:21.600
Winton & Lenore: wise, godly.

163
00:14:21.690 --> 00:14:24.150
Winton & Lenore: decent rule is.

164
00:14:24.870 --> 00:14:26.320
Winton & Lenore: who were

165
00:14:27.400 --> 00:14:32.980
Winton & Lenore: fictional figures. What lay behind the mask was something else.

166
00:14:33.390 --> 00:14:39.079
Winton & Lenore: and this is. And so Machiavelli wrote in that genre.

167
00:14:39.420 --> 00:14:51.809
Winton & Lenore: But what he wrote was absolutely shocking. He just exposed the whole racket. and his primary

168
00:14:51.920 --> 00:14:54.200
Winton & Lenore: focus was on Cesare Borgia.

169
00:14:54.480 --> 00:14:57.159
Winton & Lenore: He just he just

170
00:14:57.180 --> 00:14:59.509
Winton & Lenore: you know, exposed the whole thing.

171
00:15:00.080 --> 00:15:06.420
Winton & Lenore: and it's written. What is also shocking about the Prince is the tone of it.

172
00:15:06.680 --> 00:15:12.410
Winton & Lenore: It's it's written with absolutely no affect. no moral

173
00:15:12.510 --> 00:15:15.530
Winton & Lenore: comment, no ethical judgement.

174
00:15:15.740 --> 00:15:19.120
Winton & Lenore: If you could imagine a book written.

175
00:15:19.470 --> 00:15:24.009
Winton & Lenore: how to write it, how how to how to Run a sheep station?

176
00:15:24.490 --> 00:15:30.550
Winton & Lenore: It is written more or less in that kind of idiom. So you know

177
00:15:30.650 --> 00:15:33.730
Winton & Lenore: the book on it. Sheep, husbandry might say.

178
00:15:33.960 --> 00:15:41.210
Winton & Lenore: remember to dip your sheep against fly strike once a year in the Prince. It's

179
00:15:42.940 --> 00:15:47.360
Winton & Lenore: if you've ever, if you've overrun somebody's territory. Make sure you kill him.

180
00:15:47.430 --> 00:15:56.519
Winton & Lenore: because otherwise they'd come after you again and make sure you also kill all these closest relatives because they might be out for revenge, and you'd spend your whole time

181
00:15:56.590 --> 00:16:06.989
Winton & Lenore: watching you back and things pieces of advice like I you will find that you have to do really nasty things to make, to.

182
00:16:07.070 --> 00:16:30.150
Winton & Lenore: to gain interest and and preserve your power, and you can do some nice things. So you do the nasty things quickly, and you do the nice things slowly, because people will forget the nasty things you didn't so quickly, and then and the other, the nice things you do will stay in their memories. And he also said.

183
00:16:30.470 --> 00:16:37.340
Winton & Lenore: If you, if you manage to get the people to love you, that's terrific, but don't rely on it.

184
00:16:37.600 --> 00:16:49.689
Winton & Lenore: It's better to be feared than to be loved. and of course the divide and conquer rule, and so on. And this is all said, absolutely deadpad

185
00:16:50.210 --> 00:17:01.920
Winton & Lenore: next. And this, of course, is what enraged all the established power holders, not only in Italy

186
00:17:02.350 --> 00:17:11.119
Winton & Lenore: but throughout Europe. The book immediately found its way onto the Vatican's index of

187
00:17:11.420 --> 00:17:21.240
Winton & Lenore: forbidden books, and many and centuries later it found its way onto Stalin's index of forbidden books in the Soviet Union. So

188
00:17:21.460 --> 00:17:27.080
Winton & Lenore: you know, if you've got 2 guys like that trying to shut you down, you know you're onto something.

189
00:17:27.390 --> 00:17:30.749
Winton & Lenore: So

190
00:17:30.950 --> 00:17:31.880
Winton & Lenore: the.

191
00:17:33.250 --> 00:17:38.840
Winton & Lenore: The the thing that is interesting though, is, if for those who manage to get to

192
00:17:39.280 --> 00:17:44.470
Winton & Lenore: the last chapter, that the tone changes dramatically.

193
00:17:44.630 --> 00:17:47.330
Winton & Lenore: the the chapter is called

194
00:17:48.790 --> 00:17:53.750
Winton & Lenore: Appeal to take Italy and free it from the barbarians.

195
00:17:54.280 --> 00:18:00.260
Winton & Lenore: So who are the barbarians? It's these grubs like Cesare Borgia?

196
00:18:00.770 --> 00:18:11.210
Winton & Lenore: And he's who keep tearing Italy to pieces. And of course the foreign armies have to be kicked out too. So this was a very

197
00:18:11.220 --> 00:18:12.810
Winton & Lenore: passionate appeal

198
00:18:12.960 --> 00:18:21.450
Winton & Lenore: to yeah, to so to progressive people and to revolutionaries. To say, this is what you're up against.

199
00:18:21.820 --> 00:18:23.980
Winton & Lenore: This is how these guys work.

200
00:18:24.250 --> 00:18:25.220
Winton & Lenore: And

201
00:18:25.400 --> 00:18:27.570
this is what you need to do.

202
00:18:27.840 --> 00:18:33.020
Winton & Lenore: So there's an issue. There's an there's a fascinating paradox here

203
00:18:33.220 --> 00:18:40.619
Winton & Lenore: that he's saying that you need to liberate. Note that the chapter heading is Liberate Italy.

204
00:18:40.890 --> 00:18:47.380
Winton & Lenore: and that means you have to deal with these characters. He he had no time

205
00:18:47.640 --> 00:18:49.850
Winton & Lenore: for what he called ana

206
00:18:49.980 --> 00:18:50.680
ethics.

207
00:18:50.820 --> 00:18:52.650
Winton & Lenore: He'd seen one of those in

208
00:18:52.830 --> 00:18:57.610
Winton & Lenore: in Florence in the case of Savanna roller, so

209
00:18:58.700 --> 00:19:02.750
Winton & Lenore: kind of power-hungry monk.

210
00:19:03.000 --> 00:19:03.850
Winton & Lenore: who

211
00:19:04.250 --> 00:19:18.519
Winton & Lenore: held sway for quite a while through his wild rhetoric. But in the end his enemies said, You know he's got no backup. So let's try, and for heresy, and burn him at the State, which is what happened

212
00:19:18.690 --> 00:19:23.529
Winton & Lenore: to saven er rollers. So Machiavelli took that on board.

213
00:19:24.020 --> 00:19:30.689
Winton & Lenore: If you, if you're going to be a prophet of something, make sure you've got the the muscle, the back up

214
00:19:30.830 --> 00:19:33.129
Winton & Lenore: to make it to make it work.

215
00:19:34.210 --> 00:19:40.830
Winton & Lenore: So among the many. So you find that you know through our books following centuries.

216
00:19:42.820 --> 00:19:49.429
Winton & Lenore: people, people are loathed and hated Machiavelli. If they were figures of power

217
00:19:49.840 --> 00:19:53.549
in in England he was known as Old Mick, and

218
00:19:53.990 --> 00:19:56.399
Winton & Lenore: and he there was a kind of

219
00:19:56.930 --> 00:20:01.050
Winton & Lenore: a kind of familiar name for the devil. So, Nick I was after

220
00:20:01.520 --> 00:20:02.950
Winton & Lenore: after my friend

221
00:20:03.340 --> 00:20:05.400
Nickelodeon.

222
00:20:05.510 --> 00:20:11.280
Winton & Lenore: But the progressive people, the revolutionaries, loved him.

223
00:20:11.520 --> 00:20:15.780
Winton & Lenore: They he was their man, and one of the people who

224
00:20:15.940 --> 00:20:23.699
Winton & Lenore:  who really used his work to great advantage, at least on paper, was Antonio Graham, she

225
00:20:23.780 --> 00:20:30.060
Winton & Lenore: who was the early twentieth century Italian revolutionary thinker.

226
00:20:30.770 --> 00:20:31.900
and

227
00:20:32.330 --> 00:20:36.969
Winton & Lenore: Graham. She added a kind of coda to

228
00:20:37.150 --> 00:20:39.569
Winton & Lenore: Machiavelli's work of what he called

229
00:20:40.090 --> 00:20:42.680
Winton & Lenore: hegemony hegemonia.

230
00:20:42.960 --> 00:20:52.900
Winton & Lenore: which which was a reference to a tyranny that works through suggestion through influence.

231
00:20:53.590 --> 00:20:57.049
Winton & Lenore: It it doesn't require direct violence.

232
00:20:57.480 --> 00:21:09.850
Winton & Lenore: And so you know it. It's it's a classic way of understanding how the catalyst class maintains power by hegemony by

233
00:21:09.890 --> 00:21:13.289
Winton & Lenore: producing an ideology which makes

234
00:21:13.390 --> 00:21:16.670
Winton & Lenore: the interests of the few look like

235
00:21:16.690 --> 00:21:24.110
Winton & Lenore: the interests of everybody. That is a kind of hegemonic power. So what's

236
00:21:25.310 --> 00:21:38.269
Winton & Lenore: What does all this mean in terms of our present time? What? So what I want to suggest to you is that the reason why we have these current crises

237
00:21:38.520 --> 00:21:43.330
Winton & Lenore: is because it's the. It's the work of a tyranny

238
00:21:43.670 --> 00:21:50.740
Winton & Lenore: that is. that is, slightly, looks slightly different. but isn't in essence different

239
00:21:50.840 --> 00:21:57.389
Winton & Lenore: from what the civic Republican movement has been talking about for the last 2 2 and a half millennia.

240
00:21:58.200 --> 00:22:04.620
Winton & Lenore: the the whole business of making public affairs into

241
00:22:05.390 --> 00:22:07.629
Winton & Lenore: it matters a private

242
00:22:07.950 --> 00:22:11.609
Winton & Lenore: private power. private decision making.

243
00:22:12.110 --> 00:22:13.749
Winton & Lenore: So you know.

244
00:22:13.840 --> 00:22:16.910
Winton & Lenore: if ever there was a public affair.

245
00:22:16.950 --> 00:22:19.050
Winton & Lenore: it is climate change.

246
00:22:19.450 --> 00:22:23.460
Winton & Lenore: But who is making the decisions around?

247
00:22:23.570 --> 00:22:29.170
Winton & Lenore: How? The how? My, how many, how much greenhouse gases going into the atmosphere?

248
00:22:29.190 --> 00:22:33.960
Winton & Lenore: It sure isn't us. It sure isn't the public.

249
00:22:34.250 --> 00:22:38.859
Winton & Lenore: It's in the boardrooms it's in. It's in, particularly

250
00:22:39.230 --> 00:22:43.080
Winton & Lenore: the banking houses of Wall Street, the city of London, and so on.

251
00:22:43.450 --> 00:22:52.510
Winton & Lenore: and the way in which the hegemony works is through is is through neoliberalism which began.

252
00:22:52.550 --> 00:22:56.009
Winton & Lenore: which was established really in the 1980 S. In the

253
00:22:56.540 --> 00:23:02.690
Winton & Lenore: co-terminus Regimes of Maggie Thatcher in Britain, and Ronald Reagan in America.

254
00:23:03.200 --> 00:23:07.310
Winton & Lenore: Which produced the Washington consensus. I'm summarizing here

255
00:23:07.850 --> 00:23:09.860
the Washington consensus

256
00:23:10.050 --> 00:23:23.000
Winton & Lenore: of the into the Imf International Monetary Fund, the World Bank. the World Trade Organization, and the US. Treasury, with their relay stations in the Bank of England

257
00:23:23.040 --> 00:23:31.580
Winton & Lenore: and the European Europe, the European Central Bank. So these all established 2

258
00:23:31.680 --> 00:23:34.590
Winton & Lenore:  2 2

259
00:23:34.940 --> 00:23:43.020
Winton & Lenore:  invisible forms of hegemony. The one is to do with the forms of calculation.

260
00:23:44.080 --> 00:23:45.200
Finance.

261
00:23:45.920 --> 00:23:51.600
Winton & Lenore: neoliberalism is essentially a an ideology of finance capital.

262
00:23:52.710 --> 00:23:58.370
Winton & Lenore: and this means that investments have to be have to be

263
00:23:59.390 --> 00:24:03.220
Winton & Lenore: approved on through maximising return on investment.

264
00:24:03.610 --> 00:24:08.589
Winton & Lenore: and the effect of of successful

265
00:24:09.100 --> 00:24:11.589
Winton & Lenore: corporative decisions is

266
00:24:11.750 --> 00:24:17.300
Winton & Lenore: maximizing returns on investment which in turn increase the value of

267
00:24:17.690 --> 00:24:18.770
Winton & Lenore: shares

268
00:24:18.970 --> 00:24:23.059
Winton & Lenore: so increases in share value is what

269
00:24:23.130 --> 00:24:26.470
Winton & Lenore: is what corporations are aiming at

270
00:24:26.660 --> 00:24:29.100
Winton & Lenore: and at the national level.

271
00:24:29.170 --> 00:24:34.150
Winton & Lenore: They're aiming at the increase in in gross domestic product.

272
00:24:34.480 --> 00:24:43.979
Winton & Lenore: These are all absolutely abstract concepts that have nothing whatsoever to do with the survival of the planet.

273
00:24:44.360 --> 00:24:50.380
Winton & Lenore: Equitable distribution of goods, or anything like that, purely. purely

274
00:24:50.590 --> 00:24:52.870
Winton & Lenore: forms of calculation

275
00:24:53.020 --> 00:24:53.760
Winton & Lenore: that

276
00:24:54.620 --> 00:24:57.560
systematically exclude

277
00:24:57.960 --> 00:25:00.800
Winton & Lenore: any of these considerations. To do with

278
00:25:01.030 --> 00:25:07.650
Winton & Lenore: environmental destruction. and to do with the equitable distribution of

279
00:25:09.140 --> 00:25:15.779
Winton & Lenore: wealth, income, and life chances globally, nationally, locally, suburb by suburb.

280
00:25:16.420 --> 00:25:17.190
Winton & Lenore: So

281
00:25:17.340 --> 00:25:20.890
Winton & Lenore: so the question is,

282
00:25:20.910 --> 00:25:27.400
Winton & Lenore: how you how you break that. How you break down, how you break down those

283
00:25:27.440 --> 00:25:30.919
Winton & Lenore: systems of calculation, as the and

284
00:25:31.250 --> 00:25:40.169
Winton & Lenore: I should mention at the at the organisational level. There's also a subset of neoliberalism called new the new

285
00:25:40.480 --> 00:25:48.650
Winton & Lenore: public management. And it's the intention is to make public management like private management.

286
00:25:49.220 --> 00:25:54.690
Winton & Lenore: to make public institutions function as if they were corporations.

287
00:25:55.650 --> 00:26:00.030
Winton & Lenore: I've had personal experience of this in university life, where.

288
00:26:00.270 --> 00:26:05.609
Winton & Lenore: you know, disciplines, academic disciplines, and faculty suddenly became

289
00:26:05.840 --> 00:26:15.460
Winton & Lenore: profit centers in terms of the way the university accounting worked, and you could have a really good research center or a really good

290
00:26:16.570 --> 00:26:18.840
Winton & Lenore: disciplinary

291
00:26:19.160 --> 00:26:26.319
Winton & Lenore:  unit which was academically successful, internationally

292
00:26:26.740 --> 00:26:27.940
acclaimed.

293
00:26:28.020 --> 00:26:32.429
Winton & Lenore: But if it wasn't turning a profit. it was closed down.

294
00:26:33.410 --> 00:26:37.930
Winton & Lenore: and that, you know. Certainly it happened to me at Macquarie University, and it's a

295
00:26:37.940 --> 00:26:42.490
Winton & Lenore: familiar story. I guess in in academic life.

296
00:26:43.940 --> 00:26:44.920
But so.

297
00:26:46.480 --> 00:26:52.419
Winton & Lenore: lastly, I just want to come. So I guess I'm putting that framework out to indicate that

298
00:26:52.820 --> 00:27:00.370
Winton & Lenore: we have to be aware of these things, we have to be aware what we can be to be genuinely subversive

299
00:27:00.690 --> 00:27:07.440
Winton & Lenore: of these forms of calculation, this form of governance, of new public management, which is

300
00:27:07.890 --> 00:27:11.199
which is entirely focused on numbers.

301
00:27:11.570 --> 00:27:14.469
Winton & Lenore: It's hierarchical and authoritarian!

302
00:27:14.630 --> 00:27:17.210
Winton & Lenore: How we can subvert

303
00:27:17.480 --> 00:27:23.179
Winton & Lenore: all those ways in which our world is organized and the way

304
00:27:23.320 --> 00:27:24.580
Winton & Lenore: decisions

305
00:27:24.720 --> 00:27:30.639
Winton & Lenore: are being made that affect and that that affect the crises we're concerned about.

306
00:27:30.920 --> 00:27:33.620
Winton & Lenore: But I just wanted in in closing.

307
00:27:33.820 --> 00:27:37.059
Winton & Lenore: And before I and I invite Lenore to.

308
00:27:37.270 --> 00:27:39.830
Winton & Lenore: I'm back to to say something

309
00:27:40.080 --> 00:27:44.800
Winton & Lenore: if she wants to it firstly,

310
00:27:45.620 --> 00:28:01.650
Winton & Lenore: What I've said has got it is on top of the obvious importance of mobilisation. I mean back to. you know. good old fashioned civic republicanism. It's important to have a mobilised citizenry

311
00:28:01.990 --> 00:28:04.370
Winton & Lenore: to take to to

312
00:28:04.470 --> 00:28:14.039
Winton & Lenore: claim control of public affairs. And that's what people are obviously doing, and in various actions, and

313
00:28:14.510 --> 00:28:17.010
Winton & Lenore: on the on behalf of the climate.

314
00:28:17.130 --> 00:28:18.430
Winton & Lenore: the environment

315
00:28:18.620 --> 00:28:27.599
Winton & Lenore: and so forth. But the other one is to bear in mind that a really interesting distinction that

316
00:28:27.770 --> 00:28:30.249
vacuumlly made between liberation

317
00:28:30.320 --> 00:28:31.360
Winton & Lenore: and freedom.

318
00:28:32.170 --> 00:28:45.700
Winton & Lenore: that that the action of liberation is to get rid of the grubs and and get rid of the dictators, get rid of the tyrants, but that does not guarantee freedom.

319
00:28:45.880 --> 00:28:47.730
Winton & Lenore: and we can see, you know, from

320
00:28:47.780 --> 00:28:53.599
Winton & Lenore: in modern history than the liberation movements that have succeeded

321
00:28:53.820 --> 00:29:00.849
Winton & Lenore: in overthrowing a tyranny. Russian revolution, Chinese revolution, all the national liberation.

322
00:29:01.120 --> 00:29:04.259
Winton & Lenore: movements involved in decolonization.

323
00:29:04.820 --> 00:29:17.269
Winton & Lenore: not delivered freedom. So freedom is in the. In the republican conception. Freedom is the dispersal of power. It means power is spread

324
00:29:17.460 --> 00:29:18.850
Winton & Lenore: across the

325
00:29:19.430 --> 00:29:24.180
Winton & Lenore: across the citizenry, or in or at least

326
00:29:24.210 --> 00:29:31.920
Winton & Lenore: it. At least it's decentralized. And so this so

327
00:29:32.280 --> 00:29:33.500
trick is

328
00:29:34.500 --> 00:29:36.990
Winton & Lenore: in Machiavelli's view to have

329
00:29:37.680 --> 00:29:39.819
capable of bringing town

330
00:29:40.390 --> 00:29:50.839
Winton & Lenore: a tyrant. But then dispersing. and democratisation is a wave achieving that if you, if you can do it.

331
00:29:51.130 --> 00:29:57.529
Winton & Lenore: the problem is, course, that the the leaders, the the liberators.

332
00:29:58.620 --> 00:30:08.120
Winton & Lenore: often quickly turn into the new tyrants. So that's that's and Maggie Valley was on to that problem.

333
00:30:08.320 --> 00:30:11.340
Winton & Lenore: and certainly one we need to bear in mind

334
00:30:13.500 --> 00:30:20.110
Winton & Lenore: you want to say anything, and I mean if we can carry it on to the next discussion. Session, too. But

335
00:30:23.560 --> 00:30:24.270
Winton & Lenore: hmm

336
00:30:24.520 --> 00:30:25.259
the work.

337
00:30:25.480 --> 00:30:27.050
Winton & Lenore: Well, we've got 10 min.

338
00:30:29.020 --> 00:30:30.150
Sylvia.

339
00:30:31.130 --> 00:30:31.850
Winton & Lenore: Sorry.

340
00:30:32.060 --> 00:30:33.219
Then we'll dig into it.

341
00:30:34.150 --> 00:30:40.140
Winton & Lenore: Oh, I can do. Would you like to get in? Would you like to get into it later on. It's a it's okay.

342
00:30:40.440 --> 00:30:41.250
Good.

343
00:30:41.450 --> 00:30:43.220
Winton & Lenore: This is the head of

344
00:30:44.090 --> 00:30:48.160
Winton & Lenore: Loveline. Now, feature power. Sorry

345
00:30:48.830 --> 00:30:49.769
Winton & Lenore: I don't know.

346
00:31:06.830 --> 00:31:13.790
Winton & Lenore:  When Winton and I started having a a conversation about

347
00:31:13.890 --> 00:31:27.439
Winton & Lenore: the issue of. So the the issue of what can we do has come up so many times already here, and the issue of we've got to fix the system versus we've got a personal responsibility.

348
00:31:27.570 --> 00:31:33.020
Winton & Lenore:  we winter and I have slightly different

349
00:31:33.180 --> 00:31:35.949
Winton & Lenore: orientations on that. And we started

350
00:31:36.020 --> 00:31:42.249
Winton & Lenore: discussing it, and then Stephen said, Why don't we have this conversation with the group?

351
00:31:42.980 --> 00:31:48.189
Winton & Lenore: So we thought Winton and I might start by just

352
00:31:49.490 --> 00:31:56.450
Winton & Lenore: thrashing it out a little bit, having a dialogue about it. He says debate. I don't want a debate, I think debates are where you take positions, and yeah.

353
00:31:56.700 --> 00:32:00.589
Winton & Lenore: you know. defend them. I'm I'm genuinely interested in

354
00:32:01.220 --> 00:32:10.329
Winton & Lenore: thinking together and coming up. What I would love at the end of this retreat is for us to walk out of here feeling like, Okay, I've got a sense of what I can do

355
00:32:11.180 --> 00:32:16.740
Winton & Lenore: and so to explore Winton's thinking on it.

356
00:32:17.070 --> 00:32:22.769
Winton & Lenore: thinking on it, and then explore after that together on it. So

357
00:32:22.910 --> 00:32:28.320
Winton & Lenore: that's what we thought. And that's where I'm thinking we've got 7 min until afternoon tea. So maybe we

358
00:32:28.500 --> 00:32:34.089
Winton & Lenore: break a little bit early rather than starting the conversation and then coming. Yeah, stopping in 7 min.

359
00:32:35.440 --> 00:32:37.640
Winton & Lenore: When's the next session? We can.

360
00:32:42.290 --> 00:32:43.180
Winton & Lenore: Yup.

361
00:32:44.600 --> 00:32:49.020
Winton & Lenore: thanks. Does the book just been which have a review

362
00:32:50.940 --> 00:32:52.999
looking at the vaccine

363
00:32:55.690 --> 00:32:58.470
Winton & Lenore: to get massive conservative, allow

364
00:32:58.750 --> 00:33:02.530
Winton & Lenore: 60, 50 years. What's succeeded on what happens?

365
00:33:03.290 --> 00:33:04.570
Alright.

366
00:33:04.670 --> 00:33:10.199
Winton & Lenore: The conclusion story we have people

367
00:33:12.240 --> 00:33:18.499
Winton & Lenore: was that where people had a plan for what they were going to do next, and how they were going to do it.

368
00:33:19.370 --> 00:33:33.429
Winton & Lenore: Then there was a chance of success without that. By the time you worked it all out amongst yourselves it was too late. Someone else had taken the running, and I wonder whether the democratization sharing the power

369
00:33:33.820 --> 00:33:45.540
Winton & Lenore: second part of what you described isn't at risk of the existing system simply reforming and strengthening its position.

370
00:33:47.960 --> 00:33:55.960
Winton & Lenore: Well, the the existing system is is pretty anti-democratic. When you think about it, I mean the the most of

371
00:33:56.630 --> 00:34:01.489
really really important decisions taken. I've taken

372
00:34:02.540 --> 00:34:03.380
Winton & Lenore: outside

373
00:34:03.560 --> 00:34:06.480
Winton & Lenore: the conventional political arena.

374
00:34:07.050 --> 00:34:13.010
Winton & Lenore: So democratisation is itself a subdivision. Now, if if you introduce workers.

375
00:34:13.800 --> 00:34:14.920
Winton & Lenore: you know

376
00:34:15.250 --> 00:34:22.770
Winton & Lenore: industrial democracy or something like you're already on the way out of of of the system, but at the

377
00:34:22.980 --> 00:34:32.300
Winton & Lenore: I'm not sure that the system is as strong as it looks. It's I've just been reading a book by Wolfgang Streak.

378
00:34:33.409 --> 00:34:35.829
Winton & Lenore: who, I think, is yeah.

379
00:34:36.000 --> 00:34:40.780
Winton & Lenore: a great expert in the area, who's saying essentially that

380
00:34:41.000 --> 00:34:42.290
Winton & Lenore: that

381
00:34:42.429 --> 00:34:45.209
Winton & Lenore: neoliberalism is is on the ropes.

382
00:34:45.889 --> 00:34:49.969
Winton & Lenore: It seriously undermined itself by causing

383
00:34:50.630 --> 00:34:56.020
Winton & Lenore: global financial crisis in 2,008, which was entirely its own doing.

384
00:34:56.699 --> 00:35:00.069
And it had to be massively bailed out by

385
00:35:00.230 --> 00:35:10.839
Winton & Lenore: States, which ended the whole myth of the small State. And now, with the pandemic. you know there isn't. There are no more small states left even in.

386
00:35:11.140 --> 00:35:14.290
Winton & Lenore: you know, seriously now, liberal countries.

387
00:35:14.300 --> 00:35:23.329
Winton & Lenore: So I you know what strick is arguing is. We're actually going into a transitional phase. We but we're not trans

388
00:35:23.470 --> 00:35:25.660
Winton & Lenore: trend transition transitioning

389
00:35:25.870 --> 00:35:30.140
Winton & Lenore: into something recognizable. Now this, it's a bit like

390
00:35:30.570 --> 00:35:35.679
Winton & Lenore: the transition from feudalism to capitalism, you know. Feudalism was breaking down.

391
00:35:36.270 --> 00:35:42.460
But nobody had it. and blueprint of a new capitalist society, it just

392
00:35:42.520 --> 00:35:45.740
Winton & Lenore: it just evolved, it just grew. And

393
00:35:45.860 --> 00:35:47.480
Winton & Lenore: so

394
00:35:47.720 --> 00:35:56.440
Winton & Lenore: you know, I'm not sure about the the point about mass movements, I'm thinking. I'm thinking particularly of the anti-war movement during the Vietnam period, which was

395
00:35:56.600 --> 00:35:57.980
Winton & Lenore: the beginning of it.

396
00:35:58.440 --> 00:36:08.579
Winton & Lenore: of enormous radicalisation in the left, and it. and it sure brought into the war. So it did achieve its. It didn't achieve

397
00:36:08.870 --> 00:36:26.070
Winton & Lenore: anything further because it really didn't have anything else in mind. It was more things like Occupy Wall Street black lives matter, those kind of fairly, quickly rising and quickly fading yeah movements that we've had. And his point was that

398
00:36:26.470 --> 00:36:27.730
Winton & Lenore: essentially

399
00:36:28.370 --> 00:36:31.160
Winton & Lenore: once the noise died down.

400
00:36:31.300 --> 00:36:41.509
Winton & Lenore: no one had a positive program to take forward, and therefore, when people went home, there was nothing else to come out for. Yeah, it's absolutely right, I think. Absolutely right.

401
00:36:44.760 --> 00:36:47.000
Winton & Lenore: Just a very quick one.

402
00:36:47.760 --> 00:36:53.950
Winton & Lenore: Last time I visited Macaveles in trails in Florence I don't remember

403
00:36:54.070 --> 00:37:00.970
Winton & Lenore: the the context of them having any media to deal with and back in the fifteenth and sixteenth century.

404
00:37:00.980 --> 00:37:08.290
Winton & Lenore: So when you talk about quite correctly, the subset of the calculations being the

405
00:37:08.390 --> 00:37:29.079
Winton & Lenore: privatization of the public service, which is anti what Tiberius set up in the first place, when we come back after afternoon. T. I'm wondering whether we also need to be thinking about the subset of what potential role media could or should play in the future.

406
00:37:30.460 --> 00:37:31.849
Winton & Lenore: Absolutely. Yeah.

407
00:37:33.610 --> 00:37:36.999
Winton & Lenore: I might add that one of the books is

408
00:37:37.700 --> 00:37:41.530
Winton & Lenore: that inspired me to give. This talk was

409
00:37:43.220 --> 00:37:46.290
Winton & Lenore: written in by a Swedish

410
00:37:47.470 --> 00:37:51.050
Winton & Lenore: journalist and writer called Andesh Earnbach.

411
00:37:51.730 --> 00:37:58.860
He wrote this book called The Secrets of Power. an essay on Machiavelli.

412
00:37:59.550 --> 00:38:07.480
Winton & Lenore: and it was I was in Sweden at the time. a working in a research institute there.

413
00:38:08.500 --> 00:38:13.040
Winton & Lenore: and this book was dropped like a bombshell into the

414
00:38:13.320 --> 00:38:16.080
Winton & Lenore: into the political discussion.

415
00:38:16.940 --> 00:38:26.090
Winton & Lenore: If the book got rave reviews and the Social Democratic Prime Minister got up on his hind legs and said.

416
00:38:26.190 --> 00:38:31.530
Winton & Lenore: if Machiavelli was alive in Sweden today he would be a member of our party.

417
00:38:32.960 --> 00:38:36.810
Winton & Lenore: and and immediately the Conservative

418
00:38:36.880 --> 00:38:41.599
Winton & Lenore: opposition leader said, That's nonsense. He would be a member of our partners.

419
00:38:41.840 --> 00:38:47.710
Winton & Lenore: and every one then agreed that he should be nominated to be Swede of the year.

420
00:38:47.930 --> 00:38:52.950
Winton & Lenore: So

421
00:38:53.400 --> 00:38:57.110
Winton & Lenore: yes, these ideas have had a really

422
00:38:57.310 --> 00:38:59.029
Winton & Lenore: powerful effect on

423
00:38:59.370 --> 00:39:04.679
Winton & Lenore: you know. People had forgotten about Machiavellian. Suddenly there he was in the headlines again.

424
00:39:07.040 --> 00:39:15.729
Winton & Lenore: and very quick, just following up on that. Why was that? Was it because he described how powerful

425
00:39:15.760 --> 00:39:22.179
Winton & Lenore: really works? And it was all factual. Why? Why, I think it was because

426
00:39:22.870 --> 00:39:30.970
Winton & Lenore: It came across as a as a suddenly, as a sympathetic figure, but also the the way in which you

427
00:39:31.310 --> 00:39:35.899
Winton & Lenore: talked about liberation versus freedom, and so on, I thought, be

428
00:39:35.930 --> 00:39:52.279
Winton & Lenore: really interesting points of controversy and debate and discussion in in in the media there. I mean that Swedish newspapers a bit like you know French ones in that. They've they contain philosophical

429
00:39:52.900 --> 00:39:54.150
Winton & Lenore: discussions.

430
00:39:54.160 --> 00:39:58.240
Winton & Lenore: It's not just, you know, who's been murdered recently. It's it's

431
00:39:59.040 --> 00:40:01.849
Winton & Lenore: Really, you know.

432
00:40:03.080 --> 00:40:07.199
Winton & Lenore: Thrashing out basic issues that are quite in a

433
00:40:07.960 --> 00:40:09.519
in a refreshing way.

434
00:40:12.120 --> 00:40:17.549
Winton & Lenore: Umptus, when there was a question on line. What was the name of that book that you said dropped like a bombshell?

435
00:40:17.630 --> 00:40:25.620
Winton & Lenore: Well, it it, the translated. It is the secrets of power. It's not. It doesn't exist in English. I don't think

436
00:40:26.420 --> 00:40:29.029
Winton & Lenore: a an essay on Machiavelli.

437
00:40:31.820 --> 00:40:35.110
Winton & Lenore: A fortnight ago I went to a talk

438
00:40:35.260 --> 00:40:39.879
Winton & Lenore: in Port Macquarie by a man called. I think his name is Mark Dusseldorf.

439
00:40:40.200 --> 00:40:51.580
Winton & Lenore: He's just written a book on the tools that people in power use to stay in tools and his his whole talk was about how.

440
00:40:51.670 --> 00:40:56.670
Winton & Lenore: if we can do something to disable the tools

441
00:40:56.680 --> 00:41:13.569
Winton & Lenore: that people used to stay. But so so one of them, for example, is is use of the media, and I think there were 7 of them. I bought the book, but it's on. It's on my list to get to, so I haven't read it. But it was an interesting idea that power is maintained by various

442
00:41:13.570 --> 00:41:27.890
Winton & Lenore: means, and if you can actually chop away at those tools. Those means. Then you've got another avenue of of bringing those structures down. Yeah, yeah, I think that's that's sort of

443
00:41:28.180 --> 00:41:32.070
in line with Machiavelli, too. I look it's

444
00:41:32.920 --> 00:41:37.399
Winton & Lenore: It's 30'clock. Perhaps we should break down

445
00:41:38.500 --> 00:41:40.510
Winton & Lenore: back to this in half an hour.

446
00:41:43.700 --> 00:41:46.310
Winton & Lenore: Des, you were going to ask a question.

447
00:41:47.830 --> 00:41:49.959
Winton & Lenore: I will ask a question.

448
00:41:50.010 --> 00:41:54.500
Winton & Lenore: Just throwing into the into the part terms of

449
00:41:55.170 --> 00:41:56.260
Winton & Lenore: the act.

450
00:41:57.370 --> 00:42:00.790
Winton & Lenore: and the seeing it

451
00:42:01.390 --> 00:42:07.260
Winton & Lenore: actions within a like. Again in a global way.

452
00:42:07.540 --> 00:42:09.940
Winton & Lenore: because a lot of these problems obviously are not

453
00:42:10.140 --> 00:42:12.960
Winton & Lenore: just Australia alone.

454
00:42:13.010 --> 00:42:20.020
Winton & Lenore: But we. We are part of the problem both from a climate perspective and from an economic perspective.

455
00:42:20.440 --> 00:42:32.550
Winton & Lenore: But maybe you can some thoughts on dealing with cultural differences. So if I look at, say Russia, for example.

456
00:42:33.120 --> 00:42:41.810
Winton & Lenore: where nothing much has changed since Tsarist times, and the kind of the society falls very comfortably.

457
00:42:42.570 --> 00:42:56.390
Winton & Lenore: the Tsar through to Stalin to put in today and continues to function that way. So this is these, these, these whole measures you were talking about, freedom from. But

458
00:42:56.530 --> 00:42:57.950
Winton & Lenore: the

459
00:42:58.570 --> 00:43:13.229
Winton & Lenore: is Isaiah. Berlin wrote an essay many years ago about freedom from and freedom to and and the freedom to, are often limited, or people's perception of freedom is limited.

460
00:43:15.530 --> 00:43:19.429
Winton & Lenore: So it's just a comment. Or would you want to?

461
00:43:19.510 --> 00:43:22.950
Winton & Lenore: That's just a comment. Take it. No.

462
00:43:23.070 --> 00:43:27.200
Winton & Lenore: 2 6 point s. 2,

463
00:43:27.600 --> 00:43:31.560
Winton & Lenore: various cultural strap back the critique

464
00:43:32.160 --> 00:43:36.840
Winton & Lenore: it even within, because houses very much. A

465
00:43:37.130 --> 00:43:39.969
Winton & Lenore: she'll be right. Society, so people will.

466
00:43:41.120 --> 00:43:45.640
Winton & Lenore: Will will jump up down from barricades.

467
00:43:46.720 --> 00:44:00.240
Winton & Lenore: Yeah, I'm not sure that. And kind of cultural change or lack of change is the right box to put the Russian problem. It just seems to me that it was just another case of

468
00:44:01.090 --> 00:44:05.170
Winton & Lenore: a liberation that was achieved.

469
00:44:05.860 --> 00:44:09.049
and there was a period when there was.

470
00:44:09.520 --> 00:44:14.179
Winton & Lenore: it looked like there was going to be genuine democracy, genuine freedom in the

471
00:44:14.760 --> 00:44:27.209
Winton & Lenore: literally Soviet period when there were Soviets, which you know, workers and peasants councils. But they were all shut down when

472
00:44:27.310 --> 00:44:31.979
Winton & Lenore: when the you know, as the regime became more authoritarian, and particularly after

473
00:44:32.310 --> 00:44:34.979
Stalin took over. I mean that the whole

474
00:44:35.270 --> 00:44:48.490
Winton & Lenore: as the whole, the word Soviet, just became a kind of relic from when when all power is concentrated in the poly bureau and the old bureau, and so on. So II think it's a it's an

475
00:44:49.120 --> 00:44:59.609
Winton & Lenore: it's a bit fatalistic to think of it as being a problem of culture. I think it's a problem of institutions and failure to

476
00:45:00.140 --> 00:45:01.540
Winton & Lenore: carry through

477
00:45:01.720 --> 00:45:05.050
Winton & Lenore: on on the democratic angle. In that case.

478
00:45:06.680 --> 00:45:08.280
Winton & Lenore: But

479
00:45:09.770 --> 00:45:15.680
Winton & Lenore: I think we'll go over to Lenory now. if you want to have the

480
00:45:16.400 --> 00:45:20.299
Winton & Lenore: sure. So why don't I just sort of introduce our

481
00:45:20.780 --> 00:45:23.560
Winton & Lenore: topic for discussion? So

482
00:45:27.420 --> 00:45:34.549
Winton & Lenore: the key issue that we would like to discuss. And we think you would, too. Is this one of

483
00:45:36.330 --> 00:45:37.760
Winton & Lenore: what do we do?

484
00:45:37.910 --> 00:45:42.940
Winton & Lenore: But in the sense of to what extent do we have to change the system.

485
00:45:43.780 --> 00:45:45.550
Winton & Lenore: and to what extent

486
00:45:45.740 --> 00:45:51.519
Winton & Lenore: is it about us individually making our choices as individuals

487
00:45:52.400 --> 00:46:07.190
Winton & Lenore: correct me? If I'm wrong if I say this incorrectly, or represent your view incorrectly, Winton, but where? Where? We were yesterday afternoon, talking about this, Winton was much more emphasizing the system.

488
00:46:07.940 --> 00:46:12.660
Winton & Lenore: you know. And the system is the problem. We've got to change the system. And

489
00:46:13.060 --> 00:46:18.289
Winton & Lenore: my tendency at this moment, my current thinking, my working theory

490
00:46:18.330 --> 00:46:21.420
Winton & Lenore: is that it's both very much both

491
00:46:22.440 --> 00:46:29.110
Winton & Lenore: and I. So I do agree that we need to find a way to change

492
00:46:29.270 --> 00:46:31.190
Winton & Lenore: some elements of the system.

493
00:46:32.500 --> 00:46:38.390
Winton & Lenore: and I'm hopeful that actually. we are already finding ways to do that.

494
00:46:39.740 --> 00:46:46.700
Winton & Lenore:  and I'll talk tonight. I think it is about one way in which I've been involved in that

495
00:46:47.440 --> 00:46:50.280
Winton & Lenore: but I also equally

496
00:46:50.300 --> 00:46:53.450
Winton & Lenore: think this question about what can I do?

497
00:46:55.480 --> 00:47:01.199
Winton & Lenore: Has to start with me and my life and my individual choices.

498
00:47:02.060 --> 00:47:04.159
Winton & Lenore: and in this day and age.

499
00:47:04.840 --> 00:47:10.550
Winton & Lenore: as a consumer and as an investor with superannuation funds. And what have you?

500
00:47:10.700 --> 00:47:13.300
Winton & Lenore: That I actually

501
00:47:13.730 --> 00:47:16.229
Winton & Lenore: that those those decisions really matter.

502
00:47:17.540 --> 00:47:22.040
Winton & Lenore: and so have I. Am I on track so far?

503
00:47:22.420 --> 00:47:29.990
Winton & Lenore: Yes. Would you like to make any clarifications? Look? I don't think we're disagreeing about the need for personal change

504
00:47:30.170 --> 00:47:36.070
Winton & Lenore: and for personal activism. But I that

505
00:47:36.190 --> 00:47:41.839
Winton & Lenore: you know, we both agree that the system has to be changed, I'd probably say.

506
00:47:42.360 --> 00:47:53.049
Winton & Lenore: and it has to be subverted because we don't have an alternative system at the moment to go to. But that may not matter. I mean, it might well be

507
00:47:53.060 --> 00:48:01.500
Winton & Lenore: that the whole structure of globalization, which itself is a political project of neoliberalism.

508
00:48:01.740 --> 00:48:07.069
Winton & Lenore: the whole idea that every one would march to the same drum

509
00:48:07.160 --> 00:48:10.160
Winton & Lenore: emanating from Washington was an idea.

510
00:48:10.230 --> 00:48:18.009
Winton & Lenore: That during the Maggie, Maggie Thatcher and Ronald Reagan period before that, you know, nation states had

511
00:48:18.080 --> 00:48:19.740
Winton & Lenore: considerably more

512
00:48:19.940 --> 00:48:24.899
Winton & Lenore: power and banks and other commercial institutions.

513
00:48:25.160 --> 00:48:27.729
Winton & Lenore: Could had a lot more.

514
00:48:28.530 --> 00:48:30.330
had had a lot more

515
00:48:30.650 --> 00:48:34.460
Winton & Lenore: autonomy, relative autonomy, but more

516
00:48:34.650 --> 00:48:39.420
Winton & Lenore: autonomy. So one of the things that can happen, of course, is to break down

517
00:48:39.480 --> 00:48:45.869
Winton & Lenore: the globalization aspect so that that power is returned

518
00:48:45.970 --> 00:49:01.180
Winton & Lenore: to the local, to the national, regional and local areas. And so they become much more sensitive to public opinion. So that might be, one place to start is

519
00:49:01.400 --> 00:49:17.430
Winton & Lenore: is there? And also at the grassroots? I mean, I think it's it's great. When people set up cooperatives and other enclaves where the system is excluded, it can't. It can't operate.

520
00:49:17.630 --> 00:49:19.180
Winton & Lenore: So

521
00:49:19.350 --> 00:49:23.610
Winton & Lenore: I we obviously have to work on all fronts.

522
00:49:25.360 --> 00:49:28.530
Winton & Lenore: So something that comes up for me in that is.

523
00:49:29.960 --> 00:49:43.639
Winton & Lenore: is it helpful to see the system as evil? Yesterday I think it was when you were talking about historical, aboriginal lifestyles where they worked 3 HA day and then spent the rest of the day

524
00:49:43.770 --> 00:49:45.700
Winton & Lenore: playing and

525
00:49:46.240 --> 00:49:55.489
Winton & Lenore: indulging in culture. And what have you? They also didn't have hospitals to sustain, and research facilities and educational facilities. And

526
00:49:55.540 --> 00:49:58.100
Winton & Lenore: you know, governments to

527
00:49:58.210 --> 00:50:00.629
Winton & Lenore: pay for. And you know, what have you?

528
00:50:00.660 --> 00:50:11.789
Winton & Lenore: We do? So we are. We can't. We're in a system. We're in a system of government. And you know justice system

529
00:50:12.140 --> 00:50:19.200
Winton & Lenore: policing system. And we've got our look at our systems. and they're not all bad and

530
00:50:19.520 --> 00:50:23.459
Winton & Lenore:  and we can influence them.

531
00:50:24.200 --> 00:50:25.510
Winton & Lenore: So

532
00:50:26.190 --> 00:50:38.079
Winton & Lenore: I'd be interested to clarify with you. To what extent, when you talk about subverting this system way, are we talking about the same thing when we are talking about the system.

533
00:50:38.130 --> 00:50:39.510
Winton & Lenore: And B.

534
00:50:41.040 --> 00:50:43.630
Winton & Lenore: To what extent do you see it as

535
00:50:44.330 --> 00:50:50.399
Winton & Lenore: something we've got to work with, and we're kind of stuck with, and we just need to improve it versus

536
00:50:50.570 --> 00:50:51.660
Winton & Lenore: we've got a

537
00:50:52.760 --> 00:50:55.320
Winton & Lenore: shut it out somehow, or shut it down somehow.

538
00:50:56.800 --> 00:51:05.359
Winton & Lenore: Look, I don't think the system may not. Whether it's civil or not is sort of beside the point. It's doing what it's doing, and that is

539
00:51:06.050 --> 00:51:14.199
Winton & Lenore: putting life on this planet at risk. But I think the system is not, is not static.

540
00:51:14.430 --> 00:51:16.659
Winton & Lenore: it it has, it has

541
00:51:16.900 --> 00:51:31.270
Winton & Lenore: growing into what it is now an extremely destructive I hegemony. but it it is also very unstable. The whole history of capitalism is a history of instability.

542
00:51:31.320 --> 00:51:43.259
Winton & Lenore: Everything we know, all the economic knowledge we have comes from crises in the system. not how it's it's a bit like in medicine. All we know about the human body is

543
00:51:43.270 --> 00:51:50.700
Winton & Lenore: looking at it when it's sick. And so I think this, I think the system is going to change anyway.

544
00:51:50.990 --> 00:51:54.679
Winton & Lenore: partly because of the sort of things that I was mentioning.

545
00:51:54.740 --> 00:52:01.369
Winton & Lenore: Golf gun strikes work that in many ways. The system is, is beginning to fail

546
00:52:01.420 --> 00:52:04.080
Winton & Lenore: on its own terms, and it is.

547
00:52:04.100 --> 00:52:28.850
Winton & Lenore: and it is prone to crises. And so, you know, when it's it's it's it's not, you know. We don't need to rayify it to this extent that it's that it's a solid thing that we have to kick down. It can. It certainly is something that can be that can be changed. And I mentioned the other night about institutional outflanking.

548
00:52:29.580 --> 00:52:32.519
But which is one way of thinking about.

549
00:52:32.630 --> 00:52:36.300
Winton & Lenore: Where a system is is really not working.

550
00:52:37.560 --> 00:52:49.910
Winton & Lenore: say the reserve Bank of Australia, which keeps jacking up interest rates. If there was no an alternative source of finance

551
00:52:50.970 --> 00:52:56.280
Winton & Lenore: or an alternative way of accumulating capital. Which would

552
00:52:56.350 --> 00:53:09.869
Winton & Lenore: you leave dysfunctional institutions like that, high and dry that people just walk away from them because there's an alternative. They are given another example of

553
00:53:10.860 --> 00:53:14.580
Winton & Lenore: ways in which the system could be changed without

554
00:53:14.990 --> 00:53:17.600
Winton & Lenore: without really, you know.

555
00:53:17.820 --> 00:53:21.149
Winton & Lenore: blood on the street is, if you had a

556
00:53:21.260 --> 00:53:30.490
Winton & Lenore: I'm just plucking this out of the air. But if you passed a law that said that companies with more than a hundred

557
00:53:30.690 --> 00:53:33.430
Winton & Lenore: employees must

558
00:53:33.670 --> 00:53:38.579
Winton & Lenore: retain 50% of their operating surpluses annually

559
00:53:39.050 --> 00:53:43.669
Winton & Lenore: to reinvest in their companies and issue shares

560
00:53:43.970 --> 00:53:48.830
Winton & Lenore: to that value, and the shares are to be held by

561
00:53:49.410 --> 00:53:51.270
Winton & Lenore: by funds

562
00:53:51.290 --> 00:53:55.850
Winton & Lenore: whose whose boards are elected by the people

563
00:53:56.160 --> 00:53:57.250
Winton & Lenore: which people.

564
00:53:57.460 --> 00:54:02.159
Winton & Lenore: but everyone, everyone is on the voting on the electorate electoral rolls.

565
00:54:02.340 --> 00:54:06.889
Winton & Lenore: Okay, that would mean that you would start accumulating

566
00:54:08.110 --> 00:54:11.740
Winton & Lenore: an an enormous amount of economic power

567
00:54:11.990 --> 00:54:14.630
Winton & Lenore: in the hands of the public.

568
00:54:14.670 --> 00:54:21.349
Winton & Lenore: because these companies are making decisions that affect the public, and therefore should be in the public domain.

569
00:54:21.890 --> 00:54:26.129
Winton & Lenore: Nobody's losing anything. There's no expropriation going on.

570
00:54:26.380 --> 00:54:27.800
Nobody's.

571
00:54:28.050 --> 00:54:38.980
Winton & Lenore: you know. destroying the corporate world. But the corporate world is gradually becoming publicly controlled. Nobody. There's no losers.

572
00:54:39.320 --> 00:54:50.590
Winton & Lenore: but the winners are the public who would be then able to say, Well, we're not going to tolerate, you know, in investment projects, etc., that are

573
00:54:50.640 --> 00:54:56.650
Winton & Lenore: damaging to the environment and and it otherwise socially unacceptable.

574
00:54:59.940 --> 00:55:05.520
Winton & Lenore: So a couple of things there. You said earlier in that. get a little

575
00:55:05.880 --> 00:55:14.630
Winton & Lenore: section. That the system has, you know. created the situation where and planet Earth is at risk.

576
00:55:15.970 --> 00:55:17.270
Winton & Lenore: Yes, and

577
00:55:17.800 --> 00:55:31.040
Winton & Lenore: so so are we individually. So when when you say things like that, I think you know, it sounds like you're putting all of the responsibility on the system. But I think of

578
00:55:31.520 --> 00:55:44.990
Winton & Lenore: you know that that woman sitting in a four-wheel drive with a windows down and the air conditioner on. and and I think if I started to mention it to yesterday, an article I read last week about

579
00:55:45.450 --> 00:55:46.689
Winton & Lenore: how, since

580
00:55:46.770 --> 00:55:52.180
Winton & Lenore: between 2,010 and 2,022. And I think this is a worldwide statistic.

581
00:55:52.530 --> 00:55:59.929
Winton & Lenore: Suvs forward ice have become the most popular type of vehicle.

582
00:56:00.450 --> 00:56:09.160
Winton & Lenore: And to me this is actually a really classic case of what we're talking about. So yes, there's some. There's corporates

583
00:56:09.280 --> 00:56:24.620
Winton & Lenore: acting for their own benefit there, because Suvs are cheaper to make. and they can charge you a lot of money for them, so they're highly profitable. So yes, they're acting in a harmful way, because Suvs. So this this article was saying, if we had

584
00:56:24.810 --> 00:56:25.820
Winton & Lenore: now.

585
00:56:26.250 --> 00:56:34.469
Winton & Lenore: if we had kept the average size vehicle that we had in 2,010, and that had stayed like that until now.

586
00:56:34.770 --> 00:56:41.500
Winton & Lenore: our, the fuel consumption of the motor industry. I think they're only talking about new calves.

587
00:56:41.620 --> 00:56:54.010
Winton & Lenore: The fuel consumption would have reduced by 30%. But but below what it is now. if we had just kept the same average sized car as we had in 2,010, yet

588
00:56:54.580 --> 00:57:02.079
Winton & Lenore: the automotive companies have seen. Oh, yeah, we can do what we want to do here. We can benefit ourselves by

589
00:57:02.240 --> 00:57:07.029
Winton & Lenore: heavily marketing these very profitable vehicles that are dreadful for the environment

590
00:57:07.680 --> 00:57:16.899
Winton & Lenore: and human beings. Individuals have done the same thing. They've g10, I like the idea of an Suv, and they're not cheap.

591
00:57:17.250 --> 00:57:19.969
Winton & Lenore: So there's something driving

592
00:57:20.030 --> 00:57:31.659
Winton & Lenore: that decision. They're not being made. They're not being forced to. Yes, it's being marketed to them. Or what have you? But individuals are choosing to buy Suvs more than they did before.

593
00:57:32.240 --> 00:57:33.490
Winton & Lenore: So

594
00:57:33.970 --> 00:57:36.550
Winton & Lenore: individuals, too, are

595
00:57:36.730 --> 00:57:41.270
Winton & Lenore: making harmful decisions to benefit themselves. So

596
00:57:42.560 --> 00:57:47.669
Winton & Lenore: in a way. the corporates and the individuals are doing the same thing.

597
00:57:48.680 --> 00:58:02.019
Winton & Lenore: They're making a decision about in one case what to produce and sell and market, and in the other case, what to buy. which is a harmful decision. and they're doing it because it benefits them

598
00:58:02.920 --> 00:58:05.179
Winton & Lenore: so we can't say that it's

599
00:58:05.210 --> 00:58:07.540
Winton & Lenore: oh. Toyota's false.

600
00:58:08.310 --> 00:58:11.649
Winton & Lenore: and we can't say it's all the individual's fault.

601
00:58:12.220 --> 00:58:13.160
Winton & Lenore: But

602
00:58:14.320 --> 00:58:15.960
Winton & Lenore: both are

603
00:58:16.210 --> 00:58:21.759
Winton & Lenore: saying, bugger, the environment bugger the fact that my decision's about to cause harm. I want it.

604
00:58:24.190 --> 00:58:29.580
Winton & Lenore: Well, this is this. just this issue is a public

605
00:58:29.780 --> 00:58:35.150
Winton & Lenore: affair, its Ray's publicum. And so

606
00:58:35.160 --> 00:58:43.559
Winton & Lenore: We, the people. might want to say, put a hundred per cent. Sales tax on any new

607
00:58:45.030 --> 00:58:48.390
Winton & Lenore: passenger vehicle which

608
00:58:48.420 --> 00:58:54.399
Winton & Lenore:  has a greater fuel consumption than 3 litres per 100 kilometres.

609
00:58:54.630 --> 00:59:03.359
Winton & Lenore: How about that? So in this article they actually did talk about some systemic changes that the people who wrote this report on the changes in the motor industry.

610
00:59:03.630 --> 00:59:07.670
Winton & Lenore: They've they've recommended some legislative changes

611
00:59:07.740 --> 00:59:21.180
Winton & Lenore: to do with cars with above a certain level of, you know, below a certain level of fuel efficiency cars above a certain size, because the actual footprint of cars of these Suvs is also, you know, getting bigger and bigger.

612
00:59:21.460 --> 00:59:28.399
Winton & Lenore: So yes, there definitely, there are some, and those are already being recommended.

613
00:59:31.440 --> 00:59:39.300
Winton & Lenore: Then there's the issue of individual choice. You know, we create the market, we we create the demand for it. So how

614
00:59:41.470 --> 00:59:44.630
Winton & Lenore: you know to me this is where Duma practice comes in.

615
00:59:44.800 --> 01:00:00.759
Winton & Lenore: Can I just insert a comment at this point, there's a topic being on a question being raised online about the role of media. And you're talking between system and individual choice. But of course, the media sits in there as part of the system, and obviously influences the individual.

616
01:00:00.760 --> 01:00:23.219
Winton & Lenore: and the statement was, you know, in relation to the immense power of the media. As Winton briefly made in his talk, and how that fits in, and how that could make a difference. The Murdoch Media dictates so much of our societal norms through the way it reports, and this is common knowledge. But nothing seems to change with. This was the statement made, but I think it. It fits into this conversation somewhere. I think

617
01:00:23.410 --> 01:00:32.030
Winton & Lenore: it does. And almost in the same way. there are people consuming the Murdoch Media. You know there are people reading it, loving it.

618
01:00:33.650 --> 01:00:35.039
Winton & Lenore: adhering to it.

619
01:00:35.400 --> 01:00:43.710
Winton & Lenore: And there are people who don't as well. And it's interesting to know I know about this because the media has reported it

620
01:00:44.340 --> 01:00:48.219
Winton & Lenore: so the media again. Be really

621
01:00:49.540 --> 01:00:55.949
Winton & Lenore: uncomfortable if we start talking about the media, as you know the baddies here as well, because they they're also

622
01:00:56.090 --> 01:01:02.289
Winton & Lenore: doing amazing things about, you know, raising these issues and raising our awareness about these things.

623
01:01:03.350 --> 01:01:04.440
Winton & Lenore: So

624
01:01:05.590 --> 01:01:08.530
Winton & Lenore: back to this issue of you know, what can we do?

625
01:01:10.270 --> 01:01:15.150
Winton & Lenore: And my sense is, we look for opportunities to

626
01:01:15.320 --> 01:01:18.219
Winton & Lenore: bolster good changes that are being

627
01:01:18.350 --> 01:01:19.350
Winton & Lenore: suggested.

628
01:01:20.030 --> 01:01:27.220
Winton & Lenore: We look for ways that we can influence the political system.

629
01:01:27.440 --> 01:01:30.579
Winton & Lenore: I remember at your book launch you talked about

630
01:01:30.640 --> 01:01:34.650
Winton & Lenore: media and and supporting independent media.

631
01:01:35.250 --> 01:01:43.740
Winton & Lenore:  so I guess the question is, you know, if we're we're a bunch of caring aware

632
01:01:44.520 --> 01:01:50.500
Winton & Lenore: people. And and I see this as an incredible resource for good in the world.

633
01:01:50.700 --> 01:02:11.470
Winton & Lenore:  How do we grapple with this? It's the system, and it's our individual choices. And even if everyone in here was driving an electric vehicle by the way. In the last 2 years the fuel consumption has dropped by. It was 4.2 or something in Australia, driven by the growth in electric vehicles.

634
01:02:12.080 --> 01:02:16.660
Winton & Lenore: So just since 2,012 just since 2020

635
01:02:16.780 --> 01:02:17.840
Winton & Lenore: 2,

636
01:02:18.010 --> 01:02:25.019
Winton & Lenore: they're they're now 15 of the new car market. So you know our role as consumer there.

637
01:02:25.560 --> 01:02:32.679
Winton & Lenore: you know, the only reason there's been any reduction in fuel consumption by new cars is because of consumers using their role as consumer

638
01:02:33.130 --> 01:02:35.919
Winton & Lenore: to create a market for something good.

639
01:02:37.540 --> 01:02:42.810
Winton & Lenore: Well, why don't we? And one thing we could do is abolish the advertising industry.

640
01:02:43.320 --> 01:02:49.839
Winton & Lenore: And that would probably reduce the sale of new cars by that 50%.

641
01:02:51.390 --> 01:02:56.319
Winton & Lenore:  I've got i've actually got a plan

642
01:02:56.380 --> 01:02:57.990
Winton & Lenore: that's

643
01:02:59.070 --> 01:03:09.510
Winton & Lenore: that that would abolish advertising of things like motor cars. And I just have a a website where people anyone who want to buy a car

644
01:03:09.650 --> 01:03:11.929
Winton & Lenore: could go into, say

645
01:03:11.970 --> 01:03:20.290
Winton & Lenore: the Ford page, and where they get information about the sort of cars that Ford are selling.

646
01:03:20.310 --> 01:03:37.140
Winton & Lenore: None. None of it would be hyperbolic. It would just say it's got 4 wheels and and and an engine, and and it, you know, has a maximum speed of 100 kilometres an hour. And it costs this.

647
01:03:37.560 --> 01:03:44.080
Winton & Lenore: and there'd be other specifications, and then you would complement that with

648
01:03:44.270 --> 01:03:48.600
Winton & Lenore: a beefed up version of choice magazine.

649
01:03:48.970 --> 01:03:58.169
Winton & Lenore: but which which had a review of just as as much as many as possible of all the consumer durables on the market.

650
01:03:58.500 --> 01:04:05.659
Winton & Lenore: and it would be made very available, very cheap. So anyone who is thinking of buying a car

651
01:04:05.910 --> 01:04:07.440
Winton & Lenore: would go to choice

652
01:04:07.570 --> 01:04:13.690
Winton & Lenore: and see what was going from the type of car they wanted, and then check it out against

653
01:04:14.160 --> 01:04:16.790
Winton & Lenore: the forward page on the website.

654
01:04:17.060 --> 01:04:24.660
Winton & Lenore: and there would be no manipulation whatsoever. They could just make a cool, calculated decision on what they were going to buy.

655
01:04:25.040 --> 01:04:28.639
Winton & Lenore: I would compliment that with

656
01:04:28.740 --> 01:04:33.279
Winton & Lenore: that, everyone who's concerned about climate.

657
01:04:33.520 --> 01:04:38.999
Winton & Lenore: yeah. supporting the establishment of a car factory

658
01:04:39.040 --> 01:04:42.089
Winton & Lenore: where they produced a people's car

659
01:04:42.390 --> 01:04:49.470
Winton & Lenore: that would be ecologically sound. It would meet the highest. highest safety

660
01:04:49.820 --> 01:05:01.229
Winton & Lenore: requirements and would be strictly standardized. So there'd be economies of scale. and the car would cost a new car would cost $5,000.

661
01:05:02.100 --> 01:05:07.180
Winton & Lenore: Good luck. With that

662
01:05:08.660 --> 01:05:14.950
Winton & Lenore: I mean marketing unit. So I mean, this is an interesting. It's an interesting

663
01:05:16.030 --> 01:05:20.520
Winton & Lenore: instance of what we're talking about. Marketing. People

664
01:05:21.530 --> 01:05:30.629
Winton & Lenore: put their stuff out there deliberately trying to influence us.  and we allow ourselves to be influenced

665
01:05:32.140 --> 01:05:37.649
Winton & Lenore: so, and not everybody does. So it's not like we're sheep, you know. We're it's not like

666
01:05:38.520 --> 01:05:43.359
Winton & Lenore: we're destined to to follow what the marketers tell us.

667
01:05:45.010 --> 01:05:46.060
Winton & Lenore: So

668
01:05:46.110 --> 01:05:53.429
Winton & Lenore: back to the thing of what can we do? I mean, they're, you know all interesting ideas, and I have flights of fancy

669
01:05:53.500 --> 01:05:59.699
Winton & Lenore: sometimes to myself, but realistically so. I'm I'm thinking, from

670
01:06:01.770 --> 01:06:03.880
Winton & Lenore: we've got what 6 years

671
01:06:05.040 --> 01:06:06.960
Winton & Lenore: to really shake things up

672
01:06:07.660 --> 01:06:10.040
Winton & Lenore: on the environment. And if we don't.

673
01:06:12.120 --> 01:06:21.179
Winton & Lenore: it's it's really, really not good for human civilization going forward. 2030, they're saying, that's kind of the year.

674
01:06:21.870 --> 01:06:26.310
Winton & Lenore: So if we were to think about it that way and say, Well, we've got 6 years.

675
01:06:27.230 --> 01:06:28.699
Winton & Lenore: What do we do?

676
01:06:31.190 --> 01:06:38.780
Winton & Lenore: I think those flights of fancy are. Probably they're not going to happen in 6 years if they ever happen. So.

677
01:06:39.250 --> 01:06:41.600
Winton & Lenore: what in your view.

678
01:06:42.360 --> 01:06:43.580
Winton & Lenore: can

679
01:06:44.170 --> 01:06:49.940
Winton & Lenore: individuals do if we think about what can I do to help change the system? And what can I do

680
01:06:50.110 --> 01:07:01.479
Winton & Lenore: as an individual? I mean, we could almost think about it with those 3 concentric circles that I spoke about on the first night? You know. What can I do in my own life? What can I do in my community? What can I do

681
01:07:02.190 --> 01:07:07.020
Winton & Lenore: at a at a global level, like climate change, you know. Issue.

682
01:07:07.400 --> 01:07:08.700
Winton & Lenore: what's your

683
01:07:09.790 --> 01:07:10.939
Winton & Lenore: what's your

684
01:07:12.100 --> 01:07:21.889
Winton & Lenore: orientation? In the answer to that question? Well, yeah, I mean, time is very short. It's not 50 years. I think it's yeah. The these days. They're talking much shorter

685
01:07:22.230 --> 01:07:32.129
Winton & Lenore: timeframe. If we to get away from that, you know to avoid it. A tipping point and especially to

686
01:07:32.180 --> 01:07:37.659
Winton & Lenore: avoid going over to. I mean, I think we've lost battle for 1.5

687
01:07:39.040 --> 01:07:41.480
Winton & Lenore: degrees above

688
01:07:41.960 --> 01:07:48.279
Winton & Lenore: pre-industrial levels. But I would say I mean something like a hundred percent tax on

689
01:07:48.440 --> 01:07:59.430
Winton & Lenore: inefficient cost cars that can be put through Parliament next next year. There's no, nothing. There's nothing to stop that sort of thing. So what would we do for that?

690
01:07:59.690 --> 01:08:25.340
Winton & Lenore: To make that happen? We would join a political party. We we would create a have. We started a grassroot movement. I mean, you are a veteran of this sort of thing. We should be asking you. I mean that that was a terrific action. Getting the teals up, is it? It has. It's been a massive step apart from anything else, getting rid of it

691
01:08:25.580 --> 01:08:28.800
Winton & Lenore: environmentally totally irresponsible government.

692
01:08:29.630 --> 01:08:53.240
Winton & Lenore: So I think that that's the beginning of a model of how we should, how we we should be confronting this. So I mean to to continue down that line, and to make it clear to the existing major parties that there, that they will continue to lose votes as they are doing now, if they don't wake up to

693
01:08:53.600 --> 01:08:55.539
these pub, these

694
01:08:55.580 --> 01:09:00.840
Winton & Lenore: popular public demands to radically change things.

695
01:09:00.880 --> 01:09:03.369
Winton & Lenore: And I think the 100% sales tax

696
01:09:03.420 --> 01:09:08.119
Winton & Lenore: on inefficient new vehicles would be a great way to start.

697
01:09:10.490 --> 01:09:22.629
Winton & Lenore: It's just 1 one thing I mean is many other things, obviously, that we're other aspects of this that need to be followed up. But I also to get back to what I was talking about

698
01:09:23.020 --> 01:09:33.979
Winton & Lenore: before afternoon tea. I just think it's important that we keep thinking strategically. And we keep thinking also. This is this is not just about

699
01:09:34.520 --> 01:09:39.830
Winton & Lenore: environmentalists. It's also as a interests

700
01:09:40.229 --> 01:09:45.130
Winton & Lenore: which are converging with ours against the system particularly.

701
01:09:46.470 --> 01:09:51.020
Winton & Lenore: but particularly the way in which

702
01:09:51.660 --> 01:09:57.240
Winton & Lenore: we're treating the global South. the way we we continue to rip off

703
01:09:57.720 --> 01:10:02.439
Winton & Lenore: what what we used to call several countries. We.

704
01:10:02.820 --> 01:10:04.299
Winton & Lenore: for some reason that's

705
01:10:04.970 --> 01:10:13.569
Winton & Lenore: not an appropriate way of talking about them now. But it seems to me that we we still have this in a quality issue

706
01:10:13.630 --> 01:10:23.110
Winton & Lenore: that's going to come down and visit us very, very hard, clickily when we start getting waves of of climate refugees.

707
01:10:23.190 --> 01:10:25.890
Winton & Lenore: which is very predictable.

708
01:10:26.770 --> 01:10:30.239
Winton & Lenore: We really do have a stake in

709
01:10:30.420 --> 01:10:31.370
in

710
01:10:31.700 --> 01:10:35.450
Winton & Lenore: stopping this galloping inequality

711
01:10:36.140 --> 01:10:40.830
Winton & Lenore: on every level, including the global south, global north level.

712
01:10:40.980 --> 01:10:42.860
Winton & Lenore: So there's there are other

713
01:10:42.970 --> 01:10:53.720
Winton & Lenore: other movements, other people who've got concerns that are converging with ours because we're up against the same

714
01:10:54.760 --> 01:10:57.939
Winton & Lenore: forms of calculation, the same globalisation

715
01:10:58.160 --> 01:11:01.070
Winton & Lenore: problem that that is causing

716
01:11:01.190 --> 01:11:02.420
Winton & Lenore: global heating.

717
01:11:05.120 --> 01:11:16.969
Winton & Lenore: Shall we open this up to sure people? Yeah. In fact, Kate, I saw you. Well, 1 s, Kate, if I can. Just. There's a comment that was made here that's sort of relevant, and and maybe might

718
01:11:17.110 --> 01:11:32.859
Winton & Lenore: sports my dears as well. And from Meg or the group in Brisbane. They say I see some benefit in Buddhists, slash secular Buddhists extrapolating from the discussion this morning about creating the necessary conditions to the political action.

719
01:11:33.100 --> 01:11:45.050
Winton & Lenore: and what it would consist of that creates the political, necessary conditions to addressing the current malaise. Is this a political project of the human spirit worth consideration.

720
01:11:46.680 --> 01:11:48.750
Winton & Lenore: Could you repeat the last phrase

721
01:11:49.930 --> 01:11:56.399
Winton & Lenore: is this, yeah. Is this a political project of the human spirit worth consideration

722
01:12:01.570 --> 01:12:05.150
Winton & Lenore: for me? It does. It actually all comes down to

723
01:12:05.910 --> 01:12:08.790
Winton & Lenore: personal responsibility at some point.

724
01:12:09.530 --> 01:12:19.600
Winton & Lenore: Because the system's not going to change unless we make it change. I'm hopeful that it is changing  and I think about society broadly.

725
01:12:20.330 --> 01:12:25.759
Winton & Lenore: I heard A. Stat the other day, you know the the Guardian, and it does their essential polls.

726
01:12:26.110 --> 01:12:38.460
Winton & Lenore: And they asked about climate change, and I was gobsmacked. They they were gobsmacked. I think I'm getting this. That's right, they said about a third were saying, Yes, of course.

727
01:12:38.680 --> 01:12:42.069
Winton & Lenore: and we need to do more. And what have you about a third? We're saying?

728
01:12:43.160 --> 01:12:46.559
Winton & Lenore:  well, yes, but you know.

729
01:12:47.510 --> 01:12:51.730
Winton & Lenore: what can we do? And about a third were still in denial.

730
01:12:52.770 --> 01:12:55.010
Winton & Lenore: you know. So

731
01:12:55.390 --> 01:13:03.399
Winton & Lenore:  to me again that magic one thing. What if we could, if we could encourage people

732
01:13:03.520 --> 01:13:06.740
Winton & Lenore: to grow their awareness.

733
01:13:08.360 --> 01:13:11.700
Winton & Lenore: You know, we could solve this tomorrow.

734
01:13:12.180 --> 01:13:22.499
Winton & Lenore:  you know, as I said yesterday, people could all shift their superannuation funds into the there are a couple of ethical ones, Australian ethical. And there's another one.

735
01:13:22.840 --> 01:13:28.869
Winton & Lenore: We could all stop eating meat tomorrow. We could all. We probably can't all drive electric vehicles tomorrow.

736
01:13:28.960 --> 01:13:33.090
Winton & Lenore: But we could all you know. Think about our our footprint

737
01:13:33.250 --> 01:13:34.360
Winton & Lenore: tomorrow.

738
01:13:34.580 --> 01:13:41.380
Winton & Lenore:  we could all get involved with our local Federal Mp.

739
01:13:41.940 --> 01:13:43.010
Winton & Lenore: Tomorrow.

740
01:13:43.560 --> 01:13:47.909
Winton & Lenore:  I don't know.

741
01:13:48.720 --> 01:13:56.709
Winton & Lenore: Maybe that says bigger task as changing the system. But that's kind of where I focus my efforts.

742
01:13:58.720 --> 01:14:02.830
Winton & Lenore: I don't know. Did you have anything to say about that. Well, I mean, II

743
01:14:03.790 --> 01:14:12.080
Winton & Lenore: I do worry about the personal responsibility, personal responsibility. Because we again, we're I'm looking at the public private

744
01:14:12.470 --> 01:14:18.729
Winton & Lenore: issue in terms of civic republicanism. I guess these

745
01:14:19.280 --> 01:14:20.830
Winton & Lenore: climate change.

746
01:14:21.740 --> 01:14:31.389
Winton & Lenore: environmental dispoliation, social inequity, social exclusion. These are public issues. They they are raised public.

747
01:14:31.630 --> 01:14:34.509
Winton & Lenore: And it just seems to me that we do have to

748
01:14:35.580 --> 01:14:39.229
Winton & Lenore: Cape. pushing the political system.

749
01:14:39.380 --> 01:14:42.710
Winton & Lenore: to recognize that, and to and to rest

750
01:14:43.070 --> 01:14:44.130
Winton & Lenore: the

751
01:14:44.700 --> 01:15:02.009
Winton & Lenore: decision, making power from private hands into the into public hands. That has to be the drift, because, I mean, as long as these things are in the private domain, the profit motive is just going to keep grinding on.

752
01:15:02.490 --> 01:15:05.119
and the advertising industry will go on

753
01:15:05.490 --> 01:15:28.010
Winton & Lenore: telling people that. You know they'll be sexier and happier and more fulfilled if they would be car rather than a small car, and so it will go on and on. The system will self reproduce. It won't stay the same. It will keep self reproducing, and things have to be moved from the private to the public. Remember that

754
01:15:28.190 --> 01:15:35.750
Winton & Lenore: in again looking at it historically. part of the the great neoliberal push.

755
01:15:36.420 --> 01:15:48.019
Winton & Lenore: and it's 40 years old now. It's been responsible for the great acceleration in greenhouse gases and the massive increase

756
01:15:48.050 --> 01:15:56.740
Winton & Lenore: in in climate, turbulence in cyclones. huge storms.

757
01:15:56.960 --> 01:16:01.810
Winton & Lenore: storm surges, and all the rest of it. 40 years you can see it on a

758
01:16:01.880 --> 01:16:10.690
Winton & Lenore: on a grep. So the and part of it was privatization. Everything had to be privatised.

759
01:16:11.200 --> 01:16:13.499
Winton & Lenore: I, you know, in

760
01:16:13.650 --> 01:16:19.979
Winton & Lenore: not just been in Sweden recently, and instead of just

761
01:16:20.490 --> 01:16:28.399
Winton & Lenore: essentially abolishing the welfare state there. What they did is they privatised it all so that the people looking after

762
01:16:28.500 --> 01:16:35.720
Winton & Lenore: old people are not interested in looking after old people. They're interested in a profit. Everything has to turn

763
01:16:35.730 --> 01:16:39.840
Winton & Lenore: a profit which means things, you know. Services like

764
01:16:41.100 --> 01:16:42.920
Winton & Lenore: I add.

765
01:16:43.300 --> 01:16:57.560
Winton & Lenore: just old age care. I've got a special interest in that actually but every other. But education. Yeah, in in Sweden is a huge scandal over.

766
01:16:58.060 --> 01:16:59.330
And the fact that

767
01:16:59.570 --> 01:17:05.359
Winton & Lenore: health, the health system, is collapsing. The education system is becoming.

768
01:17:06.390 --> 01:17:11.050
Winton & Lenore: you know, a series of silos silos between

769
01:17:12.240 --> 01:17:25.530
Winton & Lenore: privatised schools in rich areas and and privatised schools in poor areas, immense changes in the quality of education and every other social service due to

770
01:17:25.640 --> 01:17:27.530
Winton & Lenore: privatisation.

771
01:17:27.540 --> 01:17:32.830
Winton & Lenore: So one of the things we need to do, one of the themes we need to push

772
01:17:34.420 --> 01:17:42.550
Winton & Lenore: as well as the obvious ones, is to get things back into public hands. And there's already that going on. I mean, a number of labor

773
01:17:42.580 --> 01:17:45.320
Winton & Lenore: state governments are are doing that.

774
01:17:45.590 --> 01:17:50.080
Winton & Lenore: I mean, just my local bus service

775
01:17:50.300 --> 01:17:56.190
Winton & Lenore: collapsed into total inefficiency when it was privatized. And so

776
01:17:56.320 --> 01:18:08.829
Winton & Lenore: that that is going to be part of dismantling the system is to return to public ownership that which belongs to the public, the health system, transport systems.

777
01:18:09.150 --> 01:18:13.109
Winton & Lenore: education and and all the rest of it, so

778
01:18:13.420 --> 01:18:17.170
Winton & Lenore: that in itself is going to remove these.

779
01:18:17.690 --> 01:18:18.810
These

780
01:18:18.860 --> 01:18:21.330
Winton & Lenore: functions of society

781
01:18:21.810 --> 01:18:29.030
Winton & Lenore: into a public will, where the citizens have a say the thing about privatizing

782
01:18:29.070 --> 01:18:45.140
Winton & Lenore: social services is that we just become consumers. We're downgraded from being citizens with rights to say what we think and vote the way we want to about them to simple customers, you know. Take it or leave it. This is what you're getting.

783
01:18:45.300 --> 01:18:51.350
Winton & Lenore: so that would be 1 one major theme. I think we ought to be pursuing

784
01:18:53.820 --> 01:18:58.090
Winton & Lenore: Kate. Kate had a question, and then we can come back to someone online after that.

785
01:18:59.490 --> 01:19:00.350
and

786
01:19:00.480 --> 01:19:02.749
Winton & Lenore: just feed that truth to me

787
01:19:03.070 --> 01:19:07.720
Winton & Lenore: and in relation to the Suvs.

788
01:19:07.950 --> 01:19:14.079
Winton & Lenore: If that information were available to the

789
01:19:15.020 --> 01:19:19.050
Winton & Lenore: potential purchases they

790
01:19:19.290 --> 01:19:20.540
Winton & Lenore: and

791
01:19:21.180 --> 01:19:32.950
Winton & Lenore: or readily available. I hear you saying that responsibility and looking it up. But the advertising industry that is is it very

792
01:19:33.340 --> 01:19:40.670
Winton & Lenore: liberal with the the truth and what it emphasizes? And it's about image rather than

793
01:19:41.440 --> 01:19:42.500
Winton & Lenore: actual.

794
01:19:43.120 --> 01:19:46.979
Winton & Lenore: the the truth of it. So it's seduction.

795
01:19:47.310 --> 01:19:48.520
Winton & Lenore: and

796
01:19:49.020 --> 01:20:03.539
Winton & Lenore: so that that's one thing about truth telling, which is a big, big increasing problem in in our public discourse in the media. The odd ever thought that I had was about.

797
01:20:03.730 --> 01:20:05.000
Winton & Lenore: and

798
01:20:05.040 --> 01:20:14.310
Winton & Lenore: advertising campaign to make it joyous and joyful to restore our connection with

799
01:20:14.400 --> 01:20:24.059
Winton & Lenore: the earth and restoring environments, and the lure of

800
01:20:24.260 --> 01:20:38.180
Winton & Lenore: improving climatic conditions and conditions for dear little animals and cutesy insects. And just, you know the the potential for a great advertising campaign. Is there

801
01:20:38.420 --> 01:20:42.799
Winton & Lenore: a bit flippant? Possibly, but in imagination.

802
01:20:44.110 --> 01:20:52.469
Winton & Lenore: And that issue that you raised just before we went, and others have raised, too, of of having a vision, of how it could be.

803
01:20:52.850 --> 01:20:57.140
Winton & Lenore: So the thing about, you know liberated. And then what?

804
01:20:57.600 --> 01:21:02.859
Winton & Lenore:  yeah, I have some ideas on that. But let's hear from other people

805
01:21:03.420 --> 01:21:05.500
and you from

806
01:21:05.600 --> 01:21:07.670
Winton & Lenore: this is what I posted that

807
01:21:08.610 --> 01:21:14.190
Winton & Lenore: I think this was the lady that posted that comment before up in Brisbane, and then we can hear from

808
01:21:14.450 --> 01:21:16.360
Winton & Lenore: someone else as well.

809
01:21:19.290 --> 01:21:31.360
Meg: Hi! Are you ready for my question. Oh, cool. So I it wh it was maybe a bit little bit misleading. So I'm Jan, and I'm part of the group that are in Brisbane coming into the

810
01:21:31.650 --> 01:21:37.040
Meg: to this this week. And my, my question really is that it seems that

811
01:21:37.140 --> 01:21:45.620
Meg: with Stephen's talk this morning and and yours this afternoon. You've basically opened an invitation to us, and that invitation is

812
01:21:45.790 --> 01:21:50.620
Meg: is something to do with creating the necessary conditions for change.

813
01:21:50.770 --> 01:21:54.329
Meg: And it seems, therefore, that our role as secular Buddhists

814
01:21:54.340 --> 01:22:04.100
Meg: could be not to focus on individual policies or not even to focus on climate change per se or the nature of ownership. It's actually to focus on

815
01:22:04.150 --> 01:22:16.679
Meg: things which would support peaceful but dramatic change. And I, these are so. That's kind of open to question. But the sorts of things that I'm aware of are

816
01:22:16.850 --> 01:22:20.680
Meg: an international project called

817
01:22:21.030 --> 01:22:25.640
Meg: I think it's called the Open open. No, no. Sorry it's called

818
01:22:25.960 --> 01:22:33.230
Meg: open is about open government. There's another initiative which was a couple of years in the UK. The 5 hundredth anniversary of

819
01:22:33.400 --> 01:22:38.479
Meg: Martin Luther. There were a whole group of progressionists who nailed

820
01:22:38.550 --> 01:22:42.490
Meg: some proclamations to the door of the London School of Economics.

821
01:22:42.540 --> 01:22:52.189
Meg: And it's really about communicating economics to people at large in a really really simple way. It seemed to me that it was an incredibly powerful initiative, and

822
01:22:52.200 --> 01:22:55.180
Meg: people like Mariana Masakato and Steve.

823
01:22:55.610 --> 01:23:10.240
Meg: This is Australian economist. Who's surname escapes me at the moment, and Kate Rollworth, who were all part of that. So I'm just. I'm just curious about what, what, how do we talk about this, and I think that we need to raise

824
01:23:10.250 --> 01:23:25.360
Meg: the discussion from individual topics to a kind of a meta approach which is like about creating the necessary conditions. And that proceeds precisely from how do we create the necessary conditions for our own

825
01:23:25.910 --> 01:23:34.650
Meg: personal development? If if you like, that's that's it's a bit a bit of a rambling, random thought, but that's what I'd like to. That's what I'd like to have some discussion about myself.

826
01:23:34.820 --> 01:23:35.730
Meg: Thank you.

827
01:23:37.660 --> 01:23:45.170
Winton & Lenore: I think that it'd be great idea for people to learn some economics.

828
01:23:45.260 --> 01:23:50.670
Winton & Lenore: I mean. But what economics is the question?

829
01:23:50.780 --> 01:23:59.850
Winton & Lenore: Because the current. the current mainstream economics, economic theories.

830
01:23:59.980 --> 01:24:06.900
Winton & Lenore: neoclassical economics, which is all about making profits.

831
01:24:07.340 --> 01:24:14.580
Winton & Lenore: I would like to see a new economic theory based upon a new theory of efficiency

832
01:24:14.810 --> 01:24:25.190
Winton & Lenore: current. The current. Whenever you hear efficiency mentioned in the economic press, it means efficiency in raising the profit rate

833
01:24:25.900 --> 01:24:31.409
Winton & Lenore: and raising share shareholder value.

834
01:24:31.860 --> 01:24:36.840
Winton & Lenore: I would rather have an efficiency at at core.

835
01:24:36.990 --> 01:24:42.080
Winton & Lenore: an efficiency, criterion, criteria that

836
01:24:42.960 --> 01:24:48.220
Winton & Lenore: measures efficiency in terms of meeting human need.

837
01:24:48.780 --> 01:24:51.799
Winton & Lenore: In both in terms of

838
01:24:52.370 --> 01:25:03.389
Winton & Lenore: spreading, waiting. All human need, not just the needs of rich people. And how production and distribution

839
01:25:03.600 --> 01:25:05.110
Winton & Lenore: would be organized

840
01:25:05.180 --> 01:25:09.539
Winton & Lenore: in order to meet human needs as universally understood.

841
01:25:09.830 --> 01:25:18.439
Winton & Lenore: That is an entirely different conception of efficiency than the one underpinning what is taught in economics

842
01:25:18.620 --> 01:25:23.520
Winton & Lenore: schools now. and it'd be terrific a terrific project.

843
01:25:23.820 --> 01:25:36.720
Winton & Lenore: you know, we could have a new efficiency movement which would be all about. That it. It is the only things that are efficient are things that do not destroy the environment.

844
01:25:37.310 --> 01:25:44.280
Winton & Lenore: and that see that we'll see the the goods and services produced.

845
01:25:44.380 --> 01:25:49.810
Winton & Lenore: right properly distributed to those who need them.

846
01:25:50.150 --> 01:25:58.060
Winton & Lenore: I remember Francis bacon in the sixteenth century. Not that I was around it, but he said something like

847
01:25:58.590 --> 01:26:01.200
money is like muck

848
01:26:01.280 --> 01:26:12.379
Winton & Lenore: all the best for being well spread, and and I think that that sort of idea should go into our concept of economic efficiency.

849
01:26:12.840 --> 01:26:19.929
Winton & Lenore: If on on that new concept of efficiency, what is going on now is grossly inefficient

850
01:26:20.310 --> 01:26:26.770
Winton & Lenore: because we're producing stuff that is not needed and enriching people who are already

851
01:26:26.950 --> 01:26:28.470
Winton & Lenore: obscenely rich.

852
01:26:28.540 --> 01:26:37.500
Winton & Lenore: While there's immense suffering and need unavailability of even clean water

853
01:26:37.580 --> 01:26:41.560
Winton & Lenore: in. You know a considerable percentage of the human

854
01:26:41.800 --> 01:26:49.419
Winton & Lenore: of the human race. So I would like to see a movement around a new efficiency model.

855
01:26:52.080 --> 01:27:02.969
Winton & Lenore: Yeah, I almost think.

856
01:27:04.850 --> 01:27:09.339
Winton & Lenore: is there? Carefully. Thank you.

857
01:27:09.520 --> 01:27:25.270
Winton & Lenore: At the risk of perhaps reiterating some things. II just my. Still, my sense is that everyone in the room here is engaged already and motivated. So when we get into the detail of individual action.

858
01:27:25.460 --> 01:27:37.140
Winton & Lenore: I feel we need to go beyond what many of us, I think, are already very engaged with, which is our daily habits, and what we buy and what we don't buy, and what car we drive, and so on.

859
01:27:37.220 --> 01:27:54.599
Winton & Lenore: to seeing ourselves of agents of change, and and to me that ultimately, and sorry to reiterate this comes down to becoming part of a synergistic team with other individuals rather than just seeing ourselves in our individual state.

860
01:27:54.840 --> 01:28:20.129
Winton & Lenore: And to that extent, climate action network, Australia. There's about a hundred 60 groups under that umbrella. They're spread all throughout Australia. They're campaigning from Federal politics through to local actions, that people are doing things like rising tide, who was so impressive at the Newcastle blockade? Obviously, a whole lot of direct action

861
01:28:20.350 --> 01:28:45.459
Winton & Lenore: movements that are going on. There's political parties or independents and Teals, and so on. I just feel like there's a lot of mechanisms already in existence that people can join and be a part of, but certainly be selective and try it out, and see if this really fits with what what your ideas might be. But I just feel that if we just get stuck in the individual thing.

862
01:28:45.840 --> 01:29:10.809
Winton & Lenore: You know, we have so little time and and so limited energy, and there is so much to be gained by working as teams, and to that extent I'll just do a little plug. Rising tide brought 3,000 people to Newcastle for the blockade next year they're planning. 10,000 be great if everybody that is able is there it wonderfully organized, very.

863
01:29:10.810 --> 01:29:22.579
Winton & Lenore: very secure, incredibly inspiring. And if you then bring back more people, I mean, hopefully, these sort of things roll much more quickly than next year.

864
01:29:22.580 --> 01:29:49.349
Winton & Lenore: But it just feels to me we all need to get engaged, and the mechanisms are there. There's some very good campaigners leading in many of the areas that we've talked about, although some of the things you've mentioned are kind of new in my mind. So let's utilize what's already out there rather than trying to reinvent a lot of things. So there may be some very original and and salient ideas coming out of this discussion.

865
01:29:52.830 --> 01:30:04.810
Winton & Lenore: Yeah, I guess I'm reiterating what Suzy's saying. So that question of what can an individual do to work with climate.

866
01:30:05.440 --> 01:30:17.070
Winton & Lenore: I think that was mentioned last night is to not be an individual. As to, as Susie saying, Join a group, you know, join the mass movement.

867
01:30:17.720 --> 01:30:23.309
Winton & Lenore: and this is not to disagree with everything you're saying. You know that whole living ethically.

868
01:30:23.360 --> 01:30:30.749
Winton & Lenore: etc. It sort of goes without saying whether we're in a climate catastrophe or not, we should be doing those things. Yeah.

869
01:30:30.770 --> 01:30:40.980
Winton & Lenore: and you know I don't want to use the word. Should you know, we're all doing the best we can with what we've got. But you know we're facing a catastrophe

870
01:30:41.080 --> 01:30:47.280
Winton & Lenore: like it's a I don't know if people are reading the science, but it's way beyond one points way beyond 2,

871
01:30:47.400 --> 01:30:54.700
Winton & Lenore: like Guterres. Antonio Guterres, of the United Nations, says we're just on a pathway to destruction.

872
01:30:55.490 --> 01:31:04.249
and that means lots of suffering. lots of suffering, not, you know. The food bowls will be destroyed refugees, anyway. You know the deal.

873
01:31:04.540 --> 01:31:08.599
Winton & Lenore: We're on a pathway to destruction. We can't.

874
01:31:08.970 --> 01:31:18.899
Winton & Lenore: You know, I think discussions about what car we use and what food we eat. So very interesting. But I'm just not interested in that anymore. It's like.

875
01:31:19.250 --> 01:31:24.339
Winton & Lenore: you know. I guess I read too much, but I'm desperate. I think

876
01:31:25.000 --> 01:31:32.700
Winton & Lenore: you know science says over and over again, the scientists I really rely on just say this is

877
01:31:32.780 --> 01:31:46.149
Winton & Lenore: has to be political. It can't be individual, and the fossil fuels trick in South Australia State government put a lot of money into us or learning how to make conversations. And it's all emphasis on the individual.

878
01:31:46.690 --> 01:31:59.909
Winton & Lenore: If everyone had an electric car tomorrow and divested, we're on a pathway to destruction. Fossil fuels have to stop. Sorry I'm sounding like a nutter, but this comes from, you know. Good science.

879
01:32:00.050 --> 01:32:02.820
Winton & Lenore: you know. We have to act politically.

880
01:32:03.460 --> 01:32:08.700
Winton & Lenore: Fossil fuels have to stop if we are to have any chance of a habitable earth

881
01:32:08.960 --> 01:32:11.329
Winton & Lenore: and you know

882
01:32:11.370 --> 01:32:23.799
Winton & Lenore: the the way to do that is a mass movement. And even if you don't want to be in a mass movement, you know it's a democracy. Go to your Mps. If they won't listen to you, have a

883
01:32:23.800 --> 01:32:43.249
Winton & Lenore: have, you know all. Bring a card table, have your coffee table set up, sit outside their office until they will listen to you. Graffiti. Use chalk. If you don't want to be arrested. Graffiti, graffiti there, you know their glass or their to the in front of their office. Insist on them listening to you. They have to represent you.

884
01:32:43.920 --> 01:33:05.389
Winton & Lenore: you know, if you don't want to do again if you don't want to glue on, or but I really ask you to take yourself out of your comfort zone. you know. Really think this is where I'm comfortable. Maybe I will march in the streets. Maybe I will hold a banner we all have to take to the streets. It's really serious.

885
01:33:05.680 --> 01:33:23.980
Winton & Lenore: Sorry. Sorry. Can I just make one clarification because I realize that what I was saying might be taken to mean that I think it's all about the individual, but I see what you just spoke about as the individual as well. It's the individuals who decide to get on board and do something

886
01:33:24.220 --> 01:33:28.119
Winton & Lenore: to join these groups to go and speak to the Mp.

887
01:33:28.870 --> 01:33:32.440
Winton & Lenore: so yeah, I see it as all of the above.

888
01:33:32.920 --> 01:33:40.190
Winton & Lenore: And if we're doing that and still eating meat and driving a suv and blah blah, blah! Blah! Blah! It's still gonna be a problem.

889
01:33:40.580 --> 01:33:43.609
Winton & Lenore: So it's all 3 levels.

890
01:33:43.620 --> 01:33:50.050
Winton & Lenore: This is what some groups are doing. They are educating. And they're the organisations we need to get involved.

891
01:33:51.610 --> 01:33:56.910
Winton & Lenore: The so-called ask us, talking individually that each one of us we need to be thinking about.

892
01:33:56.920 --> 01:34:00.430
Winton & Lenore: How do we mobilize that understanding?

893
01:34:03.250 --> 01:34:08.290
Winton & Lenore: I have. I have those

894
01:34:08.400 --> 01:34:10.180
Winton & Lenore: different opinion.

895
01:34:11.660 --> 01:34:21.670
Winton & Lenore: And the way I see the climate crisis is like a bunch of cycles who have built a time bomb.

896
01:34:22.950 --> 01:34:31.110
Winton & Lenore: and we are desperately looking for somebody to neutralize the bomb.

897
01:34:32.000 --> 01:34:37.729
Winton & Lenore: but only the people who have built a bomb can disembod can neutralize a bomb.

898
01:34:38.650 --> 01:34:52.210
Winton & Lenore: You have seen this movie where at the last 5 min they bring some expert with a a Caesar, and you don't know if he's going to get the right wire or not. So

899
01:34:52.380 --> 01:35:01.250
Winton & Lenore: this is the situation we are in. So let the people who have built a bomb too neutralizable.

900
01:35:02.440 --> 01:35:07.469
Winton & Lenore: I see nothing wrong with increasing the share of the fossil company

901
01:35:08.430 --> 01:35:15.350
Winton & Lenore: to increase their profit if the profit is well distributed, and if they reinvested

902
01:35:15.690 --> 01:35:16.930
Winton & Lenore: this prophet

903
01:35:17.210 --> 01:35:29.290
Winton & Lenore: in renewable energy, which is possible. and to change the load they have on the balance sheet from fossil asset

904
01:35:29.510 --> 01:35:35.349
Winton & Lenore: to renewable asset. and then we can stop the foresight

905
01:35:36.180 --> 01:35:38.419
Winton & Lenore: because the balance sheet will stay.

906
01:35:39.500 --> 01:35:43.869
Winton & Lenore: and we sustain. If you collapse, a balance sheet.

907
01:35:44.430 --> 01:35:47.040
Winton & Lenore: you collapse the finance system.

908
01:35:47.060 --> 01:35:51.460
Winton & Lenore: you collapse the banking system, you collapse the economy.

909
01:35:51.620 --> 01:35:56.230
Winton & Lenore: There is no more money for education. There is no more money, for else

910
01:35:56.380 --> 01:36:02.480
Winton & Lenore: there is no more money for senior people. It's 2,007

911
01:36:02.510 --> 01:36:08.410
Winton & Lenore: magnitude XI don't know if it's 1,000. 100,000. 201,000.

912
01:36:08.650 --> 01:36:16.320
Winton & Lenore: But if we collapse the system. we are going to pay a dear price.

913
01:36:20.780 --> 01:36:22.320
Winton & Lenore: you would say something.

914
01:36:22.580 --> 01:36:23.260
Winton & Lenore: calendar.

915
01:36:30.240 --> 01:36:33.860
Winton & Lenore: This is also slightly against the direction we've been going.

916
01:36:34.740 --> 01:36:43.990
Winton & Lenore:  I think we're very bad on communication. We're very bad on series of change. We're very bad

917
01:36:44.300 --> 01:36:45.980
Winton & Lenore: political change.

918
01:36:46.000 --> 01:36:53.309
Winton & Lenore: and we tend to do what everybody does when they're got the wrong theory is they just push a bit.

919
01:36:53.400 --> 01:36:59.859
Winton & Lenore: The pits came to work. I, personally don't think that's the case, and I think that, in fact.

920
01:37:01.330 --> 01:37:08.940
Winton & Lenore: elements of the Dharma are part of what can help us beyond that? Because it's always just. It's not

921
01:37:09.340 --> 01:37:20.459
Winton & Lenore: the only thing in a discussion. But frequently these discussions end up as being us and them good and bad, big and small. All of those things that we know from dharma practice. Just get us stuck.

922
01:37:20.630 --> 01:37:28.489
Winton & Lenore: get us leaving feeling powerless. Then we push a bit harder. Then we annoy a bit more, and there's a cycle which goes around which doesn't

923
01:37:28.650 --> 01:37:32.650
Winton & Lenore: get anyone anywhere. The despair is real.

924
01:37:33.040 --> 01:37:44.229
Winton & Lenore: the situation is real, but part of what we have to learn, just as we have to learn to live with uncertainty. We have to learn to live with despair and be smart in despair. Being smart in despair, means

925
01:37:44.920 --> 01:37:54.329
Winton & Lenore: being able to leave enough space for creative thought, for new ways of doing things which we don't yet know from people we haven't come across.

926
01:37:54.840 --> 01:38:03.649
Winton & Lenore: and also the possibility that we're all going to fail, and the whole thing's going to going to end in catastrophe, which is not impossible either.

927
01:38:04.390 --> 01:38:18.940
Winton & Lenore: So I'm all in favor and in individuals, trajectories towards being effective activists. So again we say, go out on the street, get a shout and push

928
01:38:19.020 --> 01:38:31.680
Winton & Lenore: that works for one person out of 19 people out of 10. Say, No, thanks. I'm going to stay at home. What you need is the small steps, the ways that allow people in the things that are attuned to their circumstances and lifestyles.

929
01:38:32.010 --> 01:38:48.089
Winton & Lenore: and we don't know where it's going to end. I'll give a tiny illustration. I chair the Buddhist Council in New South Wales. I wanted us to have a voice in climate change. So first of all, we joined the religious response to climate change, and I got on the committee there.

930
01:38:48.090 --> 01:39:03.160
Winton & Lenore: but I thought we need to have a Buddhist voice somewhere. I don't have time to do it. There's no one I know. Buddhist community was going to take. What can I do? So for a year every interfaith meeting I went to I mentioned the climate.

931
01:39:03.600 --> 01:39:06.350
Winton & Lenore: didn't say much about it. I just mentioned it.

932
01:39:07.410 --> 01:39:25.150
Winton & Lenore: What I was doing was 2 fold. One was, I was, I hope, the tiny way. And this is about 5, 6 years ago. So we're going back a bit, normalizing this as being seen as a really serious issue, and I noted the nods around the room. It was giving me courage.

933
01:39:25.500 --> 01:39:31.319
Winton & Lenore: except that I could move on, start to do other things was a really helpful, easy start.

934
01:39:31.350 --> 01:39:39.560
Winton & Lenore: And yet outside, pathetic thing to do. Chair of the Buddhist Council, 700,000 Buddhists in Australia, and all you can do is

935
01:39:39.810 --> 01:39:40.730
Winton & Lenore: make it

936
01:39:40.830 --> 01:39:44.560
Winton & Lenore: 30 s mention at a meeting. But actually it was useful.

937
01:39:44.920 --> 01:39:52.729
Winton & Lenore: So I would say out of this 2 things. One is, I think we need to take our data much more seriously as understanding how

938
01:39:53.270 --> 01:39:58.559
Winton & Lenore: change occurs this instance. It's the taint which you've been mentioned.

939
01:39:58.780 --> 01:40:06.380
Winton & Lenore: I think we work towards, and secondly, I think we need to be much more

940
01:40:06.530 --> 01:40:15.599
Winton & Lenore: imaginative and open to people doing things we don't expect that are not taking us out on the streets, and all of those things. We don't know what it's going to end up on.

941
01:40:16.420 --> 01:40:19.549
Winton & Lenore: So that's my little rave, and

942
01:40:19.590 --> 01:40:20.820
Winton & Lenore: thank you very much.

943
01:40:22.880 --> 01:40:26.740
Winton & Lenore: but I do think creating the conditions for change is what we should be looking at.

944
01:40:28.060 --> 01:40:34.720
Winton & Lenore: The change will come from the people who built the bombs. But we need to create the conditions under which the bomb builders will wished to

945
01:40:36.240 --> 01:40:37.909
Winton & Lenore: diffuse that bombs.

946
01:40:38.190 --> 01:40:46.460
Winton & Lenore: We've got one more question online, but I don't know if you want to take that when you come back for your session a little bit later, Lenore. Or now is the option.

947
01:40:47.490 --> 01:40:51.050
Winton & Lenore: Why don't we take it now there's anyone more. Okay, one more.

948
01:40:53.580 --> 01:40:54.289
What else.

949
01:40:54.470 --> 01:40:56.600
Winton & Lenore: Leanne, if you're there?

950
01:40:56.840 --> 01:40:58.700
Liane (Gumbaynggirr country): Oh, yes. Hello!

951
01:40:58.940 --> 01:41:02.659
Liane (Gumbaynggirr country): Oh, well, okay. So

952
01:41:02.720 --> 01:41:05.720
Liane (Gumbaynggirr country): a Winton.

953
01:41:06.810 --> 01:41:12.820
Liane (Gumbaynggirr country): I feel very resonant with what you've been discussing with regards to

954
01:41:12.940 --> 01:41:26.480
Liane (Gumbaynggirr country): the changes that need to come from the system. Just a little bit of context on the 61 year old woman who's been living in a van for 8 years. So, according to the mainstream criteria, I'm a homeless person

955
01:41:27.020 --> 01:41:29.410
Liane (Gumbaynggirr country): but I don't see myself as homeless.

956
01:41:29.550 --> 01:41:37.180
Liane (Gumbaynggirr country): I just got an email today from a local group called Housing Matters in the Belling Shire, which is Cambangia country where I where we live.

957
01:41:37.820 --> 01:41:49.430
Liane (Gumbaynggirr country): That the Council is now giving go ahead on 31 more multiple occupancies in this area.

958
01:41:49.580 --> 01:41:55.739
Liane (Gumbaynggirr country): So that's something that housing matters which is a group of people that have been coming together for several years now to develop

959
01:41:55.980 --> 01:42:11.099
Liane (Gumbaynggirr country): alternative housing in response to what I have not heard once mentioned in the conference in its early days. That there, you know, there is a housing crisis. And the way that that's actually being viewed

960
01:42:11.200 --> 01:42:18.310
Liane (Gumbaynggirr country): is not the way that many of us see it, and the way that I'm living and the main. Many people are living who

961
01:42:18.460 --> 01:42:28.249
Liane (Gumbaynggirr country): are on the ground grass roots movement and we're living it. We are creating a new model. But we can't go forward without the system changing.

962
01:42:28.470 --> 01:42:32.739
Liane (Gumbaynggirr country): So we've done all the individual work. We're we're aware people, we

963
01:42:32.830 --> 01:42:34.609
Liane (Gumbaynggirr country): we don't eat meat.

964
01:42:34.710 --> 01:42:40.310
Liane (Gumbaynggirr country): No, that's a joke, because I don't think not. Eating meat is necessarily a

965
01:42:40.370 --> 01:42:47.609
Liane (Gumbaynggirr country): It's not a necessity, because part of this, the way that that many people are choosing to live

966
01:42:47.880 --> 01:43:17.389
Liane (Gumbaynggirr country): is they living on the land? It's organic. It's regenerative farming. It's bidemic. The farming people like myself who don't, doesn't. Why not? Landowners? Are available to help other people on the land in exchange for that. I get food. I get a place to park my van. I get a hot shower, and I get wonderful company. So there, there, you know. So I'm really in alignment with what you're saying, Winton.

967
01:43:17.390 --> 01:43:18.500
Liane (Gumbaynggirr country): or what I'm

968
01:43:18.500 --> 01:43:31.939
Liane (Gumbaynggirr country): I'm sort of feeling that you're you're alluding to. Which is this thing of yeah, I mean, we need to be creative about about designing new new ways of

969
01:43:31.940 --> 01:43:48.519
Liane (Gumbaynggirr country): of living and interacting with each other, including the economy which doesn't have to be about a money exchange, because at the end of the day, on a grass roots level, it is about having our needs met. Food, shelter, and, of course, more

970
01:43:48.550 --> 01:44:05.740
Liane (Gumbaynggirr country): important, not more important, but equally important, is that sense of belonging within a community, so that you feel that you are valued, and you are able to be able to provide a contribution you're able to contribute. Sorry you're able to contribute

971
01:44:05.740 --> 01:44:20.680
Liane (Gumbaynggirr country): whereas at the moment living in a van for 30 years. Oh, my goodness! I could write several books about that experience and what I've seen, the changes, and, as you say, winter, the the the privatization of public space.

972
01:44:20.940 --> 01:44:50.129
Liane (Gumbaynggirr country): and the fact that I have to pay $6. Now, if I wanna go and just park my van down at the the estuary here in in Boamby. That's just a a small example. People come banging on my door. Upper middle class males who live in huge mansions alongside the beach. Come and bang on my door, because they think I'm going to be camping overnight in view of in view of you know where they're having their happy hour on the veranda.

973
01:44:50.320 --> 01:44:57.479
Liane (Gumbaynggirr country): So yeah, it's it's a really interesting position. And I guess it's more so. The question is.

974
01:44:57.830 --> 01:45:01.530
Liane (Gumbaynggirr country): when you say? Well, what are you prepared to do? It's like well.

975
01:45:02.090 --> 01:45:09.110
Liane (Gumbaynggirr country): with regards to councils, so many, I mean, that's about the people who belong to a council. And

976
01:45:09.130 --> 01:45:28.090
Liane (Gumbaynggirr country): and so it's those those people in that local area who who need to actually develop as you've been speaking about a lot. Lenno Nu Lenore about having more compassion is to be able to go well. Rather than this thing of well,

977
01:45:28.590 --> 01:45:31.840
You know these attitudes, these incredible

978
01:45:31.850 --> 01:45:44.769
Liane (Gumbaynggirr country): attitudes of entitlement and territorialism, and all of those things that as the woman I experience every day coming banging on my door because I live in a public place.

979
01:45:44.940 --> 01:45:49.769
Liane (Gumbaynggirr country): So there are movements going on as you have been describing

980
01:45:50.740 --> 01:46:16.650
Liane (Gumbaynggirr country): Winton, and you know they are happening, and I don't think we need to. As you also mentioned. We don't want the current system to collapse. It's almost like things need to develop in parallel. And the changes is, you know, the change is happening, and it's a flow, and it's a give, and it's a take, and it's a and all of those things. So thank you for allowing me

981
01:46:17.080 --> 01:46:27.539
Liane (Gumbaynggirr country): to speak, and I just really wanted to. Give it just to prove or not to prove a point.

982
01:46:27.620 --> 01:46:38.909
Liane (Gumbaynggirr country): But there's only so much you can do as an individual. And you know this personal development bit. I'm sorry I'm over personal development. I don't even like the the 2 words in the same sentence.

983
01:46:38.970 --> 01:46:47.280
Liane (Gumbaynggirr country): II think it really is about moving into someone else that teams. But it's moving back into the village

984
01:46:47.520 --> 01:46:54.320
Liane (Gumbaynggirr country): and in order to move back into the village. You're right, Lenore. People do need to actually look at their own mind

985
01:46:54.430 --> 01:46:58.560
Liane (Gumbaynggirr country): with regards to being able to participate

986
01:46:58.590 --> 01:47:09.729
Liane (Gumbaynggirr country): and be aware of their own innate prejudices, which once again I come across every day in my own community and further afield. So thank you for listening.

987
01:47:12.590 --> 01:47:16.620
Winton & Lenore: Thank you very much for that comment. Yeah, I was just thinking

988
01:47:17.070 --> 01:47:25.090
Winton & Lenore: our rulers forget that right to housing is in the UN.

989
01:47:25.480 --> 01:47:29.250
Winton & Lenore: convention on human rights in 1948,

990
01:47:29.720 --> 01:47:34.550
Winton & Lenore: and it's one of those things that gets forgotten when everything is privatised.

991
01:47:39.690 --> 01:47:41.909
Winton & Lenore: 3. I think that'd be my.

992
01:47:42.400 --> 01:47:45.210
Winton & Lenore: Bring this session and

993
01:47:46.000 --> 01:47:50.739
Winton & Lenore: continue later on. We'll bring a session to an end and

994
01:47:51.240 --> 01:48:08.330
Winton & Lenore: continue at a later date. I'm sure we would be continuing throughout the retreat. Actually, could I just throw out there a little for those of you who would like to participate in my little activity tonight my session is going to be on practicing courage

995
01:48:08.860 --> 01:48:10.100
Winton & Lenore: and

996
01:48:10.120 --> 01:48:15.530
Winton & Lenore:  if if you want to come and participate in that, the

997
01:48:15.810 --> 01:48:19.000
Winton & Lenore: thing I'd love for you to have in mind is to think of

998
01:48:19.050 --> 01:48:22.780
Winton & Lenore: a situation where you have practiced courage.

999
01:48:23.020 --> 01:48:24.090
Winton & Lenore: and

1000
01:48:24.200 --> 01:48:29.929
Winton & Lenore: usually in the service of some, you know, kind or non-harmful goal.

1001
01:48:30.270 --> 01:48:33.209
Winton & Lenore: end a situation where you could have. But you didn't.

1002
01:48:35.080 --> 01:48:39.740
Winton & Lenore: So if you can think of a real life situation for for both of those.

1003
01:48:39.800 --> 01:48:42.819
Winton & Lenore: it'll be useful for our activity tonight.

1004
01:48:43.650 --> 01:48:46.700
Winton & Lenore: maybe while yeah. having your free time or whatever.

1005
01:48:47.860 --> 01:48:49.210
Winton & Lenore: So it's.