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Winton: For the human good. And

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Winton: So one of the people that that Stephen mentions

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Winton: under this topic. Oh, Heaven!

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Winton: Her name hasn't been mentioned. Yet is Malala usify

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Winton: the Pakistani schoolgirl

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Winton: who was shot in the head by an Islam Islamist fanatic precisely because she was a schoolgirl

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Winton: and she survived, and became

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Winton: one of the most formidable witnesses against

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Winton: this sort of institutionalized

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Winton: violence and misogyny

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Winton: in the world. I mean, it was it. It was an extraordinary display of courage and perseverance that she could get it together, become become a world figure.

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Winton: And no doubt caused a certain amount of disquiet among

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Winton: misogynist Islamists.

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Winton: And

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Winton: because there's a certain a resonance in her name.

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Winton: With another one of my

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Winton: objects of admiration.

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Winton: a man called Yosef Heelstrom.

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Winton: who was born in the eastern seaboard city of

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Winton: Yevlah, in Sweden.

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Winton: who migrated to the United States.

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Winton: When Yosef Hill stern, became Joe Hill.

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Winton: and Joe Hill became

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Winton: very quickly quite remarkable. Union organizer, a member of

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Winton: the International Workers of the World.

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Winton: known to their friends is the Wobblies and and he was also a cartoonist and a

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Winton: and a songwriter.

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Winton: and some of his songs live on today in the hands of people like Pete Seeger.

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Winton: and

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Winton: around about the age of 35

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Winton: he was and

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Winton: he was executed by firing squad in Utah.

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Winton: And this these were really tough times in American labor history. It was the age of the Robert Barons

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Winton: who had a death squad called, I think, Templeton. So right, Tim.

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Winton: yeah. it was. It was a bunch of thugs and killers who were employed by the bosses

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Winton: to get rid of inconvenient

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Winton: Unionists.

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Hmm.

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Winton: Hamilton's

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yeah and

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Winton: and somehow they managed to outsource the job to the Utah State authorities on, and he was

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Winton: executed

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Winton: for on a

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Winton: trumped up murder charge.

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Winton: But the night before his execution he wrote a letter to a friend.

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Winton: where he said. Don't mourn. organise.

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Winton: and and

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Winton: I guess you know one of the songs I remember from my youth was Joan by his singing the song, I dreamt I saw Joe Hill last night.

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Winton: and those

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Winton: words in the song.

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Winton: and so again, it's this issue of voice, but he was also, I think, making a

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Winton: a really good point that we do need to organize.

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Winton: Whether it's it's a union, or whether it's

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Winton: a a

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Winton: body and defensive

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Winton: environment or fighting

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Winton: global warming, whatever. It is really important to come together and and do it well, do it properly.

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Winton: and with

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Winton: with as much cunning as possible.

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Winton:  I have had fond memory of another Unionist who I

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Winton: you personally, and work with

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Winton: for a while.

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Winton: called Laurie Carmichael, who was the leader of the

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Winton: the Australian Manufacturing Workers Union. So it was a major union in the manufacturing

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Winton: industry. and Laurie Had a very gravelly voice.

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Winton: He you knew he was in the room, even though he wasn't in any way

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Winton: bombastic. He wasn't a rebel rouser. but he'd work his way up from the shop floor. becoming a shop steward. and then someone on the on the safety committee at work.

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Winton: and then an organizer, and then a delegate, and so on up to where he became

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Winton: the leader of this huge Union, and

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Winton: And also on the governing body of the Australian Council of Trade Unions.

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Winton: I got to know him because

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Winton: he was an extraordinarily inquisitive and exploring man.

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Winton: He was. He absolutely rejected

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Winton: the Australian tradition of anti-intellectualism in Union affairs.

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Winton: He didn't, wouldn't have a bar of that

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Winton: and he

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Winton: probably annoyed a few people by constantly inviting smarties in to talk to

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Winton: to his more senior officials

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Winton: and the smarties. Of course

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Winton: university people like me. And but if Laurie said they had to be listened to well, that was it?

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Winton: And

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Winton: so I'd I'd written a couple of things about industrial democracy and economic democracy we were talking about

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Winton: yesterday

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Winton: should somehow come to Laurie's attention, and I got some

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Winton: some great gigs going down to the Clyde Cameron

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Winton: College, where which was the training ground for for Union organizers and delegates to talk about the Swedish model and and those sorts of forms of industrial reform.

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Winton: And

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Winton: While I was down there once, and one of his close associates told me that this wonderful story about how

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Winton: Laurie, who was actually a member of the Communist party of Australia.

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Winton: was invited, invited to Moscow to a a kind of conference of Western Communist Union officials.

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Winton: Laurie had pretty negative attitude towards the Soviet Union and everything that was going on there, but somehow they managed to persuade him to go, and

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Winton: at the at initial

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Winton:  party to welcome everybody and everyone standing around in a circle, and

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Winton: everyone's drinking vodka.

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Winton: except for Lori and Laurie kept on refusing the the glasses that were offered to him.

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Winton: And this somehow got up the nose of one of the Soviet officials

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Winton: who said. You know, if you're going to be a true man of the people you've got to drink.

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Winton: And Laurie said.

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Winton: I see, comrade, and how many elections have you won?

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Winton: And of course it was. It was, as we say here, a barbecue stopper.  It was a deeply subversive question in the, in the circumstances, and the elephant in the room became clearly visible.

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Winton:  The The other just final thing. I want to say is about voice is some that

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Winton: it's important to work on your voice.

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Winton: And what just wanna go back to that conversation between S. Simon Critchley and Isabelle up here.

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Winton: where she talks about aliveness.

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Winton: Aliveness is not just a function of enthusiasm. It's a function of training.

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Winton: and she's probably one of the most highly trained and highly qualified

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actors in the Western world.

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Winton: and and is obviously deploying skills in the way in the way she

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Winton: and in the way which he manages

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Winton: to to send that aliveness out.

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Winton: to be able to project it

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Winton: into the hearts and minds of the audience. And it's all about that.

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Winton: You know Machiavelli's ethos. that if your cause is deeply serious.

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Winton: then you have a deeply serious responsibility.

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To win

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Winton: to get it right?

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Winton: And so you've got to give it your best shot.

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Winton: Failure is not an option, as it is as obviously is the case in in when we struggling against global warming and the other major crises we've got today.

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Winton: I

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Winton: as an academic. I didn't understand this until about 23 years ago, when I decided

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Winton: to be serious about creative writing. Up to then I was like all the other hackers, and thought

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Winton: that if you had an idea. You just wrote it down

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Winton: and then send it to the publisher.

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Winton: And that's why most academic writing is

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Winton: unreadable, or at least unattractive. And and to actually, you know, edit edit. have in my mature years to have to go back to school and learn to write

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Winton: was really something. and

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Winton: so I managed to piggyback on A, on a creative writing course

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Winton: at the University I was about to leave. and and it was, and it was an extraordinary experience.

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Winton: And but the point was that in order to find my voice as a writer. I really had to learn a whole bunch of

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Winton: technical skills, even simple.

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Winton: simple technical points, like avoiding commerce slices.

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Winton: I'd never heard of a comma splice, but it's when you use a comma instead of a full stop, and it makes, and if you use that

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Winton: lot, it makes you pros very sloppy and and and it and it loses any kind of tension. Another one was, you know. How do you write dialogue?

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Winton: You can't. You've got to take. You've you've got to take account of the fact that humans can only can only say so many words in one breath, and then there's a bit of a pause when we, when we draw in our breath and say something, say a bit more so. Your dialogue has to have that rhythm in it. So all these sorts of all these sorts of quite

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Winton: basic principles had to. I had to learn them

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Winton: before I could. Really I could, I could really find my own voice

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Winton: justice, I guess Isabel Uber had to know all these basic technical, technical

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Winton: points in order to be able to project the kind of aliveness she was aspiring to.

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Winton: So I think I'll leave it there with the advice work on your voice.

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Winton: It's really important to get to to be to make it effective.

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Winton: So we've got about 20 min to

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Winton: talk about this.

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Winton: and off we go.

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Winton: Winton. Oh, this is Libby. By the way.

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Winton: yes, I totally agree with what you're saying it. I've been thinking about finding my own voice. I'm over the last week, and the thought that's come to me is that it's really it's really important to have the words.

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Winton: If you want to use your voice.

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Winton: And and I think in the past, in

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Winton: situations where I've

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Winton: not persisted or lacked courage to to achieve an outcome that was more ethical.

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Winton: I think, has been simply because I didn't.

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Winton: I didn't know the words to use and the way to use them to get the outcome. I wanted

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Winton: by Judy here.

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Winton: probably a very short point. I've noticed that certainly, in work, language.

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Winton: and in terms of showing respectfulness. tone of voice, has become a very big thing. But everyone has a subjective opinion

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Winton: about tone. So I was finding it highly challenging in my workplace to adopt

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Winton: the right tone.

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Winton: I don't. Anyway, I don't necessarily have an answer to that. And maybe that was during Covid and a lot of online video conversations

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Winton: where?

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Winton: Hmm, I think they tended to be more aggressiveness than if you were in face-to-face meetings with people that you knew. So.

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Winton:  yeah, probably.

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Winton: Practice that, you know, or people's sensitivities to tone or facial expressions, etc.

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Winton: Yeah. And important to effective communication

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Winton: tones with, I think we've gone through the right words or not shouting and all sorts of things. But now it's down to your tone

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Winton: in in what is appropriate communication.

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Winton: Yeah, I don't think any comment on it.

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Winton: A gun here. one of the most important things, I think, is meaning what you say.

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Winton: and that sounds very simple.

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Winton: but in fact, we very rarely really mean what we say. We sort of don't not mean it, but we don't deeply mean it.

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Winton: and it's I think there's something which is parallel to deep listening.

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Winton: which is a sort of deep listening before, and as you speak. and then

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Winton: the very specific words, and the very specific timing, and all of those things. however much or however little training you've had

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Winton: come out, and I read at lunchtime a little bit that Jackie Lambie had addressed to employers in Australia, who were disappointed that industrial relations, legislation had gone through

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Winton: vintage. Jackie Lambie absolutely brilliant, and quite clearly every single syllable meant.

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Winton: and she would have helped them every time if she could, and they knew it.

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Winton: But it was that deep meaning, and you could see that those words came from her past and her experience and they were grounded.

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Winton: Thank you. We've got Leslie online.

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Lesley Synge: Hi, everybody.

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Lesley Synge: I'd like to Winton to tease out a little bit more about the difference between

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Lesley Synge: being reactive. being responsive and finding voice. And I ask this question because

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Lesley Synge: I know, as a young woman, I found it very difficult to find my voice, particularly in the group of men.

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Lesley Synge: They were pretty actively

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Lesley Synge: rent, wanting to render us women silent back in the day

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Lesley Synge: in a political atmosphere. I'm fine. I'm thinking of. I think, as a teacher I had to be extremely responsive. You've got to entertain

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Lesley Synge: like 30 born teenagers on a hot summer day in Brisbane, or even further north. So I think I became quite a responsive, perhaps reactive person as a result of my profession.

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because I notice, even when we're talking here.

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Lesley Synge: You know, if you crack a joke of

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Lesley Synge: somebody says something moving, I am instantly responding.

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Lesley Synge: so I find it actually quite hard not to be reactive as well.

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Lesley Synge: and the whole idea of being a meditator who can somehow become like a block of wood

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Lesley Synge: is something that I

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Lesley Synge: don't quite get in some ways. I mean, I can see the point of doing it sometimes, but

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Lesley Synge: my natural reaction is well, I just use the word reaction, my natural response, my natural reaction is to be probably reactive. So if you could say a little bit more about responsiveness

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Lesley Synge: and reactivity, and how we train ourselves, and why we should train ourselves

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Lesley Synge:  out of responsiveness. For example, I'd be really interested to hear that.

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Winton: Yeah, I think the the the usefulness of the logo would is that it gives you a pause to

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Winton: a a pause which allows you to exercise freedom. to decide what the next step is going to be. I mean, if if one reacts, the reaction is is the kind of instantaneous or nearly instantaneous.

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Winton: Follow on from whatever it is. It's usually something unpleasant that's been said or done or seen. And and if we react, we're we're not acting freely.

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Winton: And so

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Winton: one might remain a log of wood for a couple of seconds, but then, in those in that time a response

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Winton: might come which is going to mean.

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Winton: That, you know the the evil circle is broken.

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Winton: I think I think that's that's a point. But when when you're speaking to about

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Winton: about

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Winton: the the effects of gender in meeting situations. it's it just reminded me of when I when I was doing research on Swedish unions

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Winton: the there was there I came across someone else's research, which showed that

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Winton: when women became

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Winton: Union delegates or we can got onto you know, governing bodies of unions, they often put on weight.

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Winton: and the reason I put on weight was so that the men in the room could see that

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Winton: and one of the most startling things that could.

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Winton: While I was, there was

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Winton: something that happened in the to the biggest union in the country, which was the public public Sector union for the the worst part nurses, nurses, sides, and all sorts of and cleaners, and so on. The Union was

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Winton: the Member Union membership was 80%. Female, and the Union leadership was 80%. Male

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Winton: and And then along came

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Winton: a nurse's aide who was really huge. I mean, she was, you know, about 190 cm, tall

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Winton: and well belt, and had a big voice, and

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Winton: she joined the the the executive of the Union of the Peak Council in in Sweden, and all the men could see.

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Winton: And she became, and she became this extraordinarily powerful figure. So we don't a lot of. I think some of it has to do with with body and and probably body language. You know, she wasn't

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Winton: backward and coming forward obviously. And

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Winton: so there's a lot of things going on, I think, you know, in in, in a situation like you're talking about

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Winton: like teaching or being in a meeting something like that. But this whole thing about

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Winton:  about gender is quite, quite extraordinary and very well.

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Research there!

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Winton: I remember another occasion. I went to a meeting about gender equity at Stockholm University. and

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Winton: one of the speakers, who was a professor of mathematics.

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Winton: who have.

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Winton: who realize that

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Winton: There was something wrong with his working environment, as they say in Sweden, there's something wrong with my working environment. And it was that it was 90% male. So he decided to really try and get more more women to enroll in mathematics. And he so

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Winton: yeah, even though there was a minority of women in rolling. He he worked it so that

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the women were

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Winton: that there were at least a third of any tutorial were women, and that meant that some. some tutorials are said to be all male. But when there was then, when there were one third

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Winton: women in the class, and you know things proceeded, and then he started getting this feedback

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Winton: from male students, saying the women were dominating their classes. And it's a

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Winton: you. You mean they're in a majority. And they said, Yes.

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Winton: and these are mass students. So so there's a there's an awful lot of

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Winton: odd murky stuff going on in the unconscious. I think that we need to factor in in understanding these sorts of dynamics.

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Lesley Synge: Okay. I'll let other people ask questions.

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Lesley Synge: Lovely. Thank you. We've got another person online, Tina, she can unmute yourself. Yeah, we go.

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Tina Gibson: Yeah, I'll be brief, cause I know Ryan hasn't spoken yet. I just wanted to. Be a bit vulnerable and share like I didn't have a voice in my house and then at school I couldn't read, so I can now. It took me a while.

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Tina Gibson: but it can be a real block for people

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Tina Gibson: and with the loving nudge from Anna she got me to join an online group for writing letters and the whole group it was. It became aware to me that you could just write it in layman's terms, you know these letters, but it was a big block before this. I was thinking, I'm not an academic. I can't make sense. And

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Tina Gibson: now

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Tina Gibson: I write all these letters, and I just say, Hey, I'm a grandma. I love the ocean, and I talk about the stories of connection with nature, and how I want that for children of the future, and I can do that easily, but it's not very academic. But

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Tina Gibson: you know, Anna, who's with you all, assured me that actually they're a little bit more interesting for people to read rather than having anything too complex. So that's all. I just wanted to add that as a voice, because I'm not alone, I'm sure some people other people also have a block, thinking I can't write anything.

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Tina Gibson: that's that will seem clever enough. So that's all. Thank you.

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Winton: We've got Anna in the room, and then Ryan online after that.

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Hmm.

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Winton: oh, and everyone's probably pretty much talked about this. But I, Leslie and Winton. But just being that, being aware of

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Winton: of the effect of not being heard both for yourself, of not being heard. whether now or as a child, or whatever, and and being aware of other people like not just women, but

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Winton: you know children or indigenous people, or the underprivileged. You know.

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Winton: people who just don't feel worthy.

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Winton: and therefore don't feel heard. And I mean, it's a it's a really

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Winton: good topic about how to gain skills.

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Winton: to, to to allow people to feel heard.

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Winton: and in our even in our dharma groups we bow before we speak.

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Winton: and everyone bows, and no one could interrupt, and no one can until that person's finished, and then they bow. And then we're supposed to have a 30 s or a minute, so that then you can think of what you're gonna say, cause so often. While someone speaking, you know you're concocting what you'd say in return, or you've got a better story or something like that. So that hold dynamic about how crippling it is for a lot of people who aren't heard. Yeah.

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Winton: okay. Ryan online. Ryan.

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Ryan Deslandes: Hi, Hi, Wynton, Hi, everyone. What a pleasure to be able to attend! I hope you can hear me. I haven't experimented with my audio much, so I belong to a group called recovery Dharma. So that's sort of basically Buddhism plus inspired by the 12 step gear-led community support movement. So that's for people who have addiction.

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Ryan Deslandes: The substances are addiction to process addictions, and it's a way that our rather than crisis manifests itself. Addiction. And I guess I wondered, and I managed to make it to the topic of your talk today. If you had any suggestions for people who are.

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Ryan Deslandes: you know, in addiction, trying to use their voice and their agency to say no to something. So I'd be interested in in anyone's.

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Ryan Deslandes: But yeah on that. Thank you.

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Winton: Did anyone want to make a contribution to that?

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Winton: Kenny? Yeah.

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Winton: Me it. Look, it's I. It's completely outside my

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Winton: competence. So I just your question just raises a reference for me. And

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Winton: in Bert Albrecht's play on Galileo there's there's the line.

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Winton: So much is gained when just one person says No stands up and says no.

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Winton: and

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Winton: I don't know. Maybe that's helpful. If people are being constantly manipulated by their would be carers, or, you know.

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Winton: so called experts. And the ability just to say No

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Winton: is, is really important.

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Winton: I know a friend of mine

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Winton: had an awful lot of had a terrible problem. Saying no.

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Winton: and his his partner got him to stand in the front of the mirror, open his mouth, and put his the tip of his tongue to the top of the roof of his mouth, and begin to pronounce the word. No, it was good therapy.

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Winton: and

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Winton: I think Margaret Margaret had a question.

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Winton: I really want to follow up from what Anna said, that there are people in our community who cannot speak for themselves.

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Winton: As a volunteer at the asylum Seeker Center. Most of our clients, if not all of them.

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Winton: feel that they could not speak for themselves. They feel that

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Winton: they would be punished by the Government

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Winton: if they speak up about the way they're being treated.

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Winton: And so a number of us are trained as community speakers. So we go out when invited to speak to

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Winton: schools different groups in the community about the experience of our clients and the global situation and the situation in this country.

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Winton: And so it's the

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Winton: art of advocacy. I'm sure many people here do that. So it's really I'm raising it and hoping to get tips from other people.

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Winton: I try to relate.

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Winton: because most people had no idea what it means to be an asylum seeker.

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Winton: And so I try to relate that experience so that they have some

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Winton: of understanding of it. when we were having the horrible bushfires. That was really easy, because

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Winton: for once people understood what it was like when you just have to drop everything and run for your life, and that's

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Winton: what it was like for a lot of our clients.

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Winton: So I like to hear from other people here who are advocates. And how do you do that job? Well. and the other thing that I get tripped up is that

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Winton: From time to time I get I can just fill the the feelings. You know you feel the suffering.

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and when you're talking about it, and

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Winton: you try not to get emotional. So the whole issue of in our culture. It's not quite acceptable

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Winton: to be emotional

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Winton: about

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Winton: people suffering

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Winton: about the terrible conditions that it's you should be as calm as possible.

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Winton: and

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Winton: speak of it as if you know it's not happening in a way. So yeah.

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Winton: really, I just kind of want to open it up in terms of.

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Winton: If you work as advocates and speak for those who cannot. how do you do it? And what what can we learn from you.

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Winton: Is there someone that had a quick response to that straight off the bat?

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Lena: Hmm!

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Winton: I'm John. Thanks, Margaret. I work with the voluntary work with homeless people.

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Winton: and I find the

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Winton: a very important part of the task is to help them to feel heard within organizations

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Winton: that a lot of the time I mean III mean, I'm a psychologist, but I don't. I don't have my psychology running in my head when I'm working with them.

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Winton: I'm doing a lot of listening.

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Winton: and then when I'm with them with agencies, I'm being very careful being watchful. Rather should say,

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Winton: helping to manage the flow of information that goes across to the person with who is homeless, because quite often they're dealing with their drug addictions and their their

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Winton: true horrific life stories, so they can cope with small bits of information, and being able to manage between agencies and upon the homeless person.

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Winton: so that the homeless person can go away or come away with a sense of there's something happening. They're not just getting confused.

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Winton: So giving voice to people who don't feel they've got a voice. suppose my my first step is. I spent a long time listening to them. and once I feel connected

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Winton: then quite often, they feel like they've got some sort of. We talked about an anchor before somebody we're talking about. Having an anchor, but you become like the the anchor for them, and that they'll keep coming back to.

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Winton: It's a slow progress. Yeah. we're a slow journey.

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Winton: Yeah. So that was my comment about giving voice number

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Winton: to people who feel they don't have a voice.

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Winton: Thanks, John. We've got Amy, and then we've got Rina on line.

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Winton: Thank you. My name's Amy, and I'd like to speak to Ryan's question

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Winton: about saying, No.

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Winton:  I for me. I'll talk about my own story. I think that it was

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Winton: part of the experience of not being heard part of the experience of being punished.

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Winton: part of the experience of being ashamed by people.

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Winton: and I think that that became like a very tight scarf around my throat.

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Winton: and in order for me to say no to somebody, it was very unsafe

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Winton: because of this accumulation.

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Winton: and I think that I, when I look back of how did that change?

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Winton: It started by saying No to people that I felt

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Winton: knew me. The few people that I felt dear me! Did hear me, and were close to me, and from there.

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Winton: and Eve, and also I needed to think of it needed to know, or how I'd feel. I didn't know this at the time what would happen if I said no, and they just went on anyway, and that was a big hurdle.

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Winton: But after starting there, it's rippled out. And

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Winton: now I'm really able to say no when I believe that that is the right thing for me to say thank you.

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Winton: I'm just wondering whether we can save Rennet till till next session, because we're now a bit over time.

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Winton: Is that possible? That works very well, cause she's dropped offline. I think right. Well, why don't we?

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Winton: break for coffee? And we're back in half an hour.

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wayside.

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Winton: hey? So

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Winton: Let's get the questions and comments rolling again.

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Winton: We got anyone. And yes, there's

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Bronwen: what's it?

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Winton: Thank you. It is again.

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Winton: You talk. You talk about voice and giving voice and living, your voice be heard.

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Winton:  What is your thoughts on

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Winton: the other side?

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Winton: It's one thing talking. It's another thing having an audience that's actually going to listen

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Winton: and receive. So it's you know how to, as

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Winton: WS. Gilbert said, make the punish, let the punishment fit the crime, and know who you are dressing so doesn't land on deaf ears.

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Winton: and especially in a society like ours, where there's so much complacency.

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Winton: Well.

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Winton: I just don't know how you overcome complacency, except that's why

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through

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Winton: actions that can't be ignored, sort of like like extinction, rebellion actions, things like that that actually jolt people

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Winton: and the rising tide.

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Winton: demonstration all those sorts of things. I think you've just got to

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Winton: have a spectacle and make a lot of noise.

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Winton: I mean communications is not my long suit, but I that seems to be the way that that

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Winton: if you make a lot of noise and there's a lot of people. It just means it's important to have a lot of people on the street. I'm thinking particularly of the

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Winton: anti-war movement. and you know, the more

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Winton: people on the street. They the more it seemed to get through.

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Winton: Not only to people who are apathetic.

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Winton: but were but to people who were ill intentions.

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Bronwen: kept thinking of

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Winton: Hachi means comments that

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Winton: the Vietnam war

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was one on the streets of Chicago. Because the it was those

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Winton: mass demonstrations of

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Winton: refusal

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Winton: to accept the word.

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Winton: That really means that Western political leaderships

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couldn't keep going on.

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Winton: And the end the

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Winton: strategists in Hanoi knew that they actually prompted when the demonstration should occur

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Winton: in various countries to keep keep a steady roll of those demonstrations happening.

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Winton: It was really interesting how they did that in.

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Winton: you know, as part of the anti-war movement then. and you get these prompts from

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Winton: now is the time for another. You know. Big one down.

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Winton: you know, along the quarry street, or something like that.

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Winton: So, apart from that, it's hard to think of how you

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Winton: no doubt, you know there's a whole

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Winton: discipline around. You know, in communications about how you reach the complacent or the apathetic, or this simply switched off.

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Winton: Probably people have had experience of that in the room and might enlighten us.

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It's a beautiful

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Winton: you, but

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Winton: I think the kind of some of the outreach ideas going up on the board and talked about here around these kitchen table discussions, the outreach to people who may not or may not even be impressed by what they see on the news, whether it's a demo or whatever I think it's a personal, and and that extending out now is often

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Winton: kind of going to be the most

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Winton: it's going to give people the best grounding in understanding what it is that's going on. I probably have a little bit of a reservation about Demos that are not strategically targeted because it can inconvenience very people that you're wanting to bring on board. I think it's great if it is aimed at certain banks and certain entities and certain political

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Winton: entities. But I think, yeah, it needs to be done well. But the other part of it is that I think just about every action that's probably ever happened has been reliant on positive media covering it.

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Winton: because as soon as the media paints it as just a rabble, then you've lost it. So it's less about getting a halt. Well, it is largely about getting a lot of people out there, but it's also making sure the media's there, and they're going to cover it in a sympathetic way, and I think every organisation to some degree orchestrates that the best way they can. But of course, we've already talked about the limitations

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Winton: of a sort of media coverage according to which Media is doing that.

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Winton: Thanks, Susie. Just a brief comment

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Winton: around the referendum on the voice there was some brilliant analysis of communication done particularly, I think it was called passing the message stick

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Winton: was an extraordinary report.

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Winton: based on about 2 or 3 years research on how to communicate with the different communities different issue from the climate issue. But the issues are the same well worth looking at.

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Winton: I was just wondering was there anything, any particular insight that came out of that?

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Winton: In response to this question about how to reach the apathetic. Well.

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Winton: see, II would say, and this is me speaking, not

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Winton: the

399
00:43:44.090 --> 00:43:48.429
Winton: not that particular report. The moment you talk about the apathetic, you've lost it

400
00:43:48.610 --> 00:43:59.160
Winton: got a bunch of people. From your point of view. They're apathetic. From that point of view. They're living their lives in the terms of meaning and the the context in which they're living.

401
00:43:59.200 --> 00:44:05.850
Winton: and I think what you have to do is you have to understand that in order to be able to engage with them

402
00:44:06.280 --> 00:44:12.040
Winton: the moment you come with the deplorables or apathetic mindset, I think you lost.

403
00:44:12.360 --> 00:44:14.749
Winton: and essentially that, I think, is the

404
00:44:14.920 --> 00:44:20.529
Winton: foundational insight of a lot of this research, which I think comes back a little bit to what

405
00:44:20.620 --> 00:44:22.310
Winton: you're talking about, too.

406
00:44:22.360 --> 00:44:34.440
Winton: But clearly you wouldn't address them as use the apathetic, I mean, but but you think about them. But you but you know, in analytic mode you've got to think about about them.

407
00:44:34.640 --> 00:44:46.040
Winton: Yes, but if your analysis starts with terminology like that. Then, as a social scientist, you would know that that colors the way you go about and understand. Go about your search and understand what you find.

408
00:44:46.470 --> 00:44:50.549
Winton: and I think there's real dangers in coming at it

409
00:44:50.610 --> 00:44:52.599
too much from that point of view

410
00:44:53.050 --> 00:44:56.670
Winton: that you can learn some things. But I think there's real dangers personally.

411
00:44:58.350 --> 00:45:01.499
Winton: Thanks. We've got Rayner online. Who has a question.

412
00:45:01.920 --> 00:45:06.759
rena czaplinska-archer: No, I oh, am I unmuted? Can you hear me?

413
00:45:07.200 --> 00:45:10.420
Winton: We can? Oh, good. So

414
00:45:11.410 --> 00:45:24.380
rena czaplinska-archer: and I have. I have been involved in collaborative community consultations. 34, 35 years ago, and

415
00:45:24.730 --> 00:45:31.859
rena czaplinska-archer: did such a good job with it that I will send to Unesco to represent Podesco Conference to represent Australia's

416
00:45:31.890 --> 00:45:33.270
rena czaplinska-archer: found with great

417
00:45:33.320 --> 00:46:00.770
rena czaplinska-archer: Surprised by some people from Poland, said, what are you talking about? How can I be talking such a Communist language up there? When people post solidarity stage, anyway? I have found that the way to engage collective creativity, which is what we are talking about. I have published on this section on academia.edu, under my name.

418
00:46:00.770 --> 00:46:08.260
rena czaplinska-archer: in the list of various things that I have written. Collaborative design process, which includes communities

419
00:46:08.260 --> 00:46:23.220
rena czaplinska-archer: which might be not very articulate in English, who might be including people who are not very good at reading, who might be very conscious that the way of speaking, using a lot heavy accent.

420
00:46:23.520 --> 00:46:29.109
rena czaplinska-archer: That's been my experiences a lot of time when I've been speaking. People listen to

421
00:46:29.730 --> 00:46:42.740
rena czaplinska-archer: my melody of the language or the my accent, rather than to what I was trying to say, I have I have learned to employ nonverbal language

422
00:46:42.930 --> 00:46:48.880
rena czaplinska-archer: and nonverbal ways of communicating by engaging community in

423
00:46:49.000 --> 00:47:20.690
rena czaplinska-archer:  simpler exercise not necessarily simpler, because in terms of social research they very sophisticated, but they are not using. They not based on verbal verbal, comes after those exercises were done, and they include collective creativity, inspiring collective creativity. That was the topic of the community center that I designed, and that took me to Denmark.

424
00:47:20.800 --> 00:47:22.859
rena czaplinska-archer: In 2,000 and

425
00:47:22.920 --> 00:47:42.109
rena czaplinska-archer: 1991. So ages ago, I came back to Australia. I found Australia. I was not interested in color, collaborative design processes. There was no money for it, and so I went back to designing houses for individual clients who, willing to pay me. I need to bring up my 2 cents. So I wanted to

426
00:47:42.290 --> 00:47:48.580
rena czaplinska-archer: to answer. I think Margaret asked question about how to communicate with refugees.

427
00:47:48.880 --> 00:47:54.139
rena czaplinska-archer: Oh, with people who have difficulty speaking English.

428
00:47:54.570 --> 00:47:56.410
rena czaplinska-archer: There are people who are

429
00:47:56.630 --> 00:48:15.759
rena czaplinska-archer: well, there are, there are. There are exercises, and there are processes which I used in collective creativity. Workshop approached collective creativity. That have been studied and described in 19 seventies and eighties, I have actually hooked on to stuff to do with them, dancing

430
00:48:15.840 --> 00:48:19.799
rena czaplinska-archer: an authentic movement, and including

431
00:48:20.030 --> 00:48:21.969
rena czaplinska-archer: actually walking the land

432
00:48:22.050 --> 00:48:42.369
rena czaplinska-archer: and actually sharing your noticing of what you notice, and and discovering which things you like, and which things you don't like very simple things, same thing as meditation, but doing it in groups, and notice things which you like and not, and then sharing those things. And this is discovering where, for what? Other things which

433
00:48:42.370 --> 00:48:53.059
rena czaplinska-archer: which are dear to people collectively, and what therefore vision they might have for the future, and somehow finding something called

434
00:48:53.060 --> 00:49:18.540
rena czaplinska-archer: common language, which is not necessarily an in fact, country to A lot of conversation that I heard today is nothing to do with eloquent, articulate academic training. In fact, in my in my experience of doing my Pd. Phd. Very early at 26 London, I have one of the things I was taught that really smart people

435
00:49:18.540 --> 00:49:35.229
rena czaplinska-archer: do not speak in the language, that others need to be, use dictionaries to understand that they are able to say something very complicated in a very simple language. because communication is very important. And so I have. When I

436
00:49:35.850 --> 00:49:50.550
rena czaplinska-archer: I think I shared it before with Bergamsanga, one of the things that I have discovered when I sort of landed in Australia and started practising architecture with the aim of trying to make a difference

437
00:49:50.550 --> 00:50:07.719
rena czaplinska-archer: I was that I realized that the in academic training made my head very heavy. On one side, left side. I felt like I had a horn on the left side, sticking out the left side of my brain was over developed, and the right, which was pretty good, because with Polish, imagination and

438
00:50:07.800 --> 00:50:10.180
rena czaplinska-archer: various sort of stories, and

439
00:50:10.850 --> 00:50:18.069
rena czaplinska-archer: all story stories, and whatever I was brought up stories I had pretty vivid, but it sort of got

440
00:50:18.120 --> 00:50:29.829
rena czaplinska-archer: squashed by all this intellectual stuff, and the thing that I decided to do was to keep developing, to turn my attention to intent to

441
00:50:29.990 --> 00:50:34.070
rena czaplinska-archer: intuition. And the question was, Where is it? And so

442
00:50:34.500 --> 00:50:39.260
rena czaplinska-archer: that's what I started. That was my main

443
00:50:39.490 --> 00:50:50.960
rena czaplinska-archer: motto of teaching at Sydney University. When I was teaching, I was indicted soon after to start teaching in a design studio third year in sustainability and heritage and

444
00:50:51.270 --> 00:50:57.219
rena czaplinska-archer: the thing that doesn't matter what we're talking about. I always try to to

445
00:50:57.430 --> 00:50:58.510
rena czaplinska-archer: somehow

446
00:50:58.640 --> 00:51:04.980
rena czaplinska-archer: transmit the information about intuition. And for me, intuition is actually in the body. It's in the heart.

447
00:51:05.050 --> 00:51:20.479
rena czaplinska-archer: But and it's to do with somehow entrance to this through the feelings and the feeling tone in the body none of that was ever taught. It's like you don't talk the one thing you don't, you can't talk you. There was an earlier conversation about it. You must talk about

448
00:51:20.560 --> 00:51:24.780
rena czaplinska-archer: big traumas, but with no emotions. Well.

449
00:51:25.340 --> 00:51:31.939
rena czaplinska-archer: part of this thing about being able to talk with people who are not very articulate, and don't want to

450
00:51:32.340 --> 00:51:40.690
rena czaplinska-archer: to, to narrow down the conversation to very articulate and clever words, but are very involved or

451
00:51:40.770 --> 00:51:56.370
rena czaplinska-archer: are willing to contribute, is actually to share the feelings about the spaces we live in, about the cities, and how they are designed and and draw creative ideas. There's nothing special about architects and urban planners that

452
00:51:56.410 --> 00:52:00.279
rena czaplinska-archer: that makes them experts in designing

453
00:52:00.330 --> 00:52:09.499
rena czaplinska-archer: or politicians. They definitely not expressing designing is people who are very good design. Some of the slams in the world are the best designs urban places.

454
00:52:09.650 --> 00:52:13.990
rena czaplinska-archer: On the planet. but

455
00:52:14.030 --> 00:52:20.530
rena czaplinska-archer: it. It's a matter of allowing people to come collectively and talk about it. And

456
00:52:20.780 --> 00:52:31.610
rena czaplinska-archer: yeah, so that covers that thing. I had another comment on. Clearing the path. And on

457
00:52:32.330 --> 00:52:42.230
rena czaplinska-archer:  something that we talked about cultivating Dharma by cultivating the person you want to become.

458
00:52:42.380 --> 00:53:06.340
rena czaplinska-archer: and by cultivating the voice. In 2,007, when I came back from my well, when what collapsed and we formed and we formed S as SIM, which I was one of the Co. Organizer with, went and invited me to be one of the founders. I actually left

459
00:53:06.520 --> 00:53:10.569
rena czaplinska-archer: Australia, and I went on a trip round the world to sort of recover myself

460
00:53:10.760 --> 00:53:15.030
rena czaplinska-archer: because I really loved doing Dharma in the forest.

461
00:53:15.260 --> 00:53:26.810
rena czaplinska-archer: At the what. And II didn't feel the same way. Meeting in some little rooms doesn't matter how friendly the group was. I was missing the trees,

462
00:53:27.210 --> 00:53:33.620
rena czaplinska-archer: And so I when I came back I discovered I developed rheumatoid arthritis, and

463
00:53:33.810 --> 00:53:43.000
rena czaplinska-archer: I am. I immediately got myself into the work back again, and I put myself under 4 weeks fast. What a fast

464
00:53:43.550 --> 00:53:47.660
rena czaplinska-archer: didn't want to listen to the expert doctors.

465
00:53:47.830 --> 00:53:50.839
rena czaplinska-archer: And and well, while at the what.

466
00:53:50.950 --> 00:54:00.989
rena czaplinska-archer: as if fant there used to be fantastic library, I went to the library, and the first book I opened was clearing the path by Nanar Verata.

467
00:54:01.040 --> 00:54:04.200
rena czaplinska-archer: which happened to be the book which

468
00:54:04.930 --> 00:54:09.680
rena czaplinska-archer: Stephen has dedicated. He's

469
00:54:09.970 --> 00:54:23.270
rena czaplinska-archer: and Buddhism without beliefs. Little book, too. None of your Terra committed suicide after finishing writing that book in 1965. But the first thing in that book on the front page was

470
00:54:23.340 --> 00:54:32.510
rena czaplinska-archer: saying, if you want to read that book because you're an academic, and you just love reading and collecting more and more clever information. Don't bother.

471
00:54:32.620 --> 00:54:36.760
rena czaplinska-archer: But if you are a person that wants to really change your life

472
00:54:36.930 --> 00:54:44.810
rena czaplinska-archer: because you have some condition which he bothers you, and you are committed to changing the way you live.

473
00:54:44.860 --> 00:54:49.540
rena czaplinska-archer: Read it, and I promise you that by the time you've finished that 500 pages

474
00:54:50.470 --> 00:54:58.830
rena czaplinska-archer: you'll be clear, your path will be clear. Well, I read that book. I had enough time to read that book and practise

475
00:54:59.260 --> 00:55:03.340
rena czaplinska-archer: in the beautiful cellar. and reflect

476
00:55:03.530 --> 00:55:05.680
rena czaplinska-archer: and draw and think.

477
00:55:05.760 --> 00:55:07.559
rena czaplinska-archer: and including.

478
00:55:07.890 --> 00:55:10.399
rena czaplinska-archer: really

479
00:55:10.560 --> 00:55:15.349
rena czaplinska-archer: finding the way that Nana Vera describes

480
00:55:15.580 --> 00:55:29.519
rena czaplinska-archer:  defunable truth as tasks, and how he describes the clearing of the path. Here is a big section on addiction, where he describes that the whole society we live in is addicted.

481
00:55:29.890 --> 00:55:32.840
rena czaplinska-archer: some addicted to to meditation, you know.

482
00:55:32.930 --> 00:55:47.189
rena czaplinska-archer: He didn't say that, but but he pointed out that there is a lot of addiction going on. I have discovered that because I had issues with my children, and I had to join

483
00:55:47.400 --> 00:55:55.900
rena czaplinska-archer: a a a alcoholics anonymous. I discovered that group iacons was was the most amazingly practising

484
00:55:56.120 --> 00:56:00.829
rena czaplinska-archer: Buddhist group in like they were not. They didn't call themselves Buddhists, but they were using the

485
00:56:01.060 --> 00:56:04.039
rena czaplinska-archer: the principles of

486
00:56:04.100 --> 00:56:13.370
rena czaplinska-archer: what are we talking about? Donna Alvira. Talk talking about addiction to work, addiction to newspapers, addiction to television addiction to

487
00:56:13.420 --> 00:56:18.189
rena czaplinska-archer: sweets, addiction to sex addiction to whatever you want.

488
00:56:18.370 --> 00:56:30.379
rena czaplinska-archer: and that we are in a society that is addicted, and part of the thing about clearing the path is to become aware of your own addictions. You don't have to be on drugs, you can be on something completely. Else

489
00:56:30.520 --> 00:56:32.830
rena czaplinska-archer: could be on buying another unit.

490
00:56:33.180 --> 00:56:43.810
rena czaplinska-archer: counting your mind, being worried about everything all the time, thinking that you can solve your children's problems all the time. It's been my big problem, like, whoever has a problem, give it to me and I'll solve it. No.

491
00:56:44.060 --> 00:57:09.500
rena czaplinska-archer: I decided to give up on this, and I am going now. I have discovered in the clearing of the path. In my own life I have discovered that I have overloaded my heart with every everybody else's problems, including my children's problems, and that the only way that I keep going that I can keep going is that I have to replenish my heart just like a plant that needs watering. And so I have

492
00:57:09.970 --> 00:57:16.149
rena czaplinska-archer: after covet last year. But I've been going there for quite a few years, but last year, after covet.

493
00:57:16.180 --> 00:57:28.539
rena czaplinska-archer: I went to the desert. I have been going then. I've spent about 3 months this last 12 months in the desert. I find it's feeding me, and it's an amazing place to practise Dhamma in.

494
00:57:28.900 --> 00:57:38.379
rena czaplinska-archer: And it's really nice going on my own. It's really nice to go with, like minded people who are interested in deep listening.

495
00:57:38.470 --> 00:57:42.949
rena czaplinska-archer: deep listening, not to clever words, but to whispers

496
00:57:43.450 --> 00:57:47.270
rena czaplinska-archer: to poetry that is somehow the in the, in, the

497
00:57:47.650 --> 00:57:57.390
rena czaplinska-archer: who in the wind, or in the whatever. The bird comes up and shows me the babies, and does this and the kangaroo, and so on.

498
00:57:57.860 --> 00:58:04.580
rena czaplinska-archer: and the stories of trauma and terrible injustices that happened to this land.

499
00:58:04.640 --> 00:58:14.940
rena czaplinska-archer: And then all the lies I'm so uninterested in listening to clever conversations about English ways, and how? Why, yes, why not by something else? I

500
00:58:15.000 --> 00:58:19.949
rena czaplinska-archer: coming from German, from I was born in a post war German city

501
00:58:19.980 --> 00:58:29.800
rena czaplinska-archer: on top of ruins of the Breslau. and the whole story of whose fault it was. And anybody German is bad an

502
00:58:30.300 --> 00:58:36.219
rena czaplinska-archer: course. Anybody English is perhaps not quite the same, but somehow this conversation has to

503
00:58:36.570 --> 00:58:53.329
rena czaplinska-archer: has to happen. I find it really confusing to be stuck in this I am conf. I am conf. I am Australian, but I want to be living in a country where people are more honest, and they actually use their heart to communicate. Thank you, that's all. Thank you. Thank you. Rayna.

504
00:58:53.390 --> 00:58:56.270
Winton: Yeah. Have you? Kristen? Oh, thanks.

505
00:58:56.560 --> 00:59:09.140
Winton:  I went to Golden Bottle Sanger a couple of times, and they often meet underneath an alcoholics, anonymous meeting. So there's lots of clapping and cheering. And it's actually

506
00:59:09.160 --> 00:59:10.240
Winton: really nice.

507
00:59:10.950 --> 00:59:15.829
Winton:  just in terms of communication and

508
00:59:15.850 --> 00:59:18.379
Winton: response in

509
00:59:18.480 --> 00:59:20.130
Winton: terms of climate.

510
00:59:20.280 --> 00:59:25.520
Winton: Something, I wonder is if there's enough variety, and

511
00:59:25.980 --> 00:59:32.209
Winton: I don't know more authenticity and a sense of real engagement in what's being offered. I guess.

512
00:59:32.280 --> 00:59:35.700
Winton: in the climate communication.

513
00:59:35.940 --> 00:59:39.329
Winton:  I was just reminded of

514
00:59:39.490 --> 00:59:45.930
Winton: my sister the other day, was getting annoyed at me because I apparently never listened to her advice.

515
00:59:46.330 --> 00:59:57.109
Winton: And I said to her, Well, you think everything I do is bad, so I've stopped listening. and I think that's just constant

516
00:59:57.830 --> 01:00:01.360
Winton: single-minded not, you know.

517
01:00:01.620 --> 01:00:06.040
Winton: not necessarily all negative, but you do sort of drain it out, and I think

518
01:00:06.530 --> 01:00:13.360
Winton: it was. She actually had never realized that, and began to engage with me in a much more sort of

519
01:00:13.850 --> 01:00:15.260
Winton: a

520
01:00:15.890 --> 01:00:26.450
Winton: thoughtful way, II think. And and over the next few days she came out with a few things like oh, but you know, I'm really, you know, impressed with your commitment to the Senga thing and

521
01:00:26.790 --> 01:00:36.409
Winton: and a few different things like that. And it actually had a real impact on our relationship, because I started listening to her. And she actually says some quite useful things.

522
01:00:36.520 --> 01:00:37.610
Winton: So

523
01:00:37.830 --> 01:00:44.500
Winton: think that was that was my comment, just the the real sense of engagement and being listened to, and maybe the

524
01:00:44.780 --> 01:00:46.750
Winton: a variety

525
01:00:46.770 --> 01:00:59.339
Winton: authenticity. And I think it comes back to what we were saying over the past few days that the individual contributions everyone has to make will probably be the strength of

526
01:00:59.890 --> 01:01:01.099
Winton: what we can offer.

527
01:01:01.510 --> 01:01:02.200
Thanks.

528
01:01:02.910 --> 01:01:09.500
Winton: thanks, Kristen. We've got Lena and Gary online. And then John in the in the room.

529
01:01:09.880 --> 01:01:10.610
Winton: Okay.

530
01:01:12.390 --> 01:01:14.690
Lena: okay, I just had a

531
01:01:14.760 --> 01:01:17.010
Lena: short

532
01:01:17.020 --> 01:01:20.189
Lena: comment to, I think to Margaret.

533
01:01:20.480 --> 01:01:41.619
Lena: When you talked, Margaret, about being emotional when you're talking about the lives to this, to school schools, or whatever about the the lives of the people you are helping and dealing with the asylum seekers and being too emotional.

534
01:01:41.760 --> 01:01:48.579
Lena: And I can really understand that that what came to my mind was our once

535
01:01:48.900 --> 01:01:52.829
Lena: sort of quite macho. Prime Minister

536
01:01:52.930 --> 01:01:54.180
Lena: for pork!

537
01:01:54.320 --> 01:02:05.739
Lena: He cried in front of the whole country, when he had a family problems with his children. I think one of them was a drug addict.

538
01:02:05.960 --> 01:02:11.350
Lena: And yeah, it was amazing to see him

539
01:02:11.560 --> 01:02:18.490
Lena: actually express that his feelings. So I think it's nothing. I think it's good to be

540
01:02:18.820 --> 01:02:20.260
Lena: too emotional

541
01:02:20.550 --> 01:02:30.269
Lena: and not hold back. But then I also wanted to know when and what you think about, whether changes in society

542
01:02:30.290 --> 01:02:32.849
Lena: can only happen with

543
01:02:33.030 --> 01:02:48.270
Lena: this type of things like the protest and demonstrations. And I think you went back to the Vietnam war, which was sort of one by by people showing what they felt.

544
01:02:48.350 --> 01:02:53.379
Lena: And then I was thinking, we can go as far back as the vote for women.

545
01:02:53.520 --> 01:02:58.450
Lena: and how that was played out in England.

546
01:02:58.540 --> 01:03:14.570
Lena: and how people the women were arrested, and they were imprisoned. and, etc. But then, of course, we have also quite a few demonstrations which are lost like. There was a huge demonstration for the Iraq War.

547
01:03:15.160 --> 01:03:21.580
Lena: and it was both in England, here around the world. and we still

548
01:03:22.160 --> 01:03:37.829
Lena: sort of people. We we people lost in that regard. And you know. And eventually we saw what happened. It gave rise to Isis and Li. The situation we have now is.

549
01:03:38.140 --> 01:03:45.949
Lena: goes back to that, too, I think, with the con. Such con conflict between Muslims and

550
01:03:46.630 --> 01:03:48.480
Lena: the rest of society.

551
01:03:49.110 --> 01:03:55.600
Lena: So I just wanted to know what you. Do you think there is another way? Or is that just what we have to do?

552
01:03:56.320 --> 01:04:07.370
Lena: Yeah, I think it might end up with the an Iraq situation with the climate protests. Yes, certainly the those massive demonstrations against

553
01:04:07.680 --> 01:04:10.579
Winton: the invasion of Iraq.

554
01:04:10.630 --> 01:04:16.910
Winton: Oh, we had plenty of time for lots of huge demonstrations against the

555
01:04:18.040 --> 01:04:20.339
Winton: signal that we're that

556
01:04:20.370 --> 01:04:26.309
Winton: Iraq was going to be invaded by the USUK. Australia and Poland

557
01:04:26.640 --> 01:04:29.560
and there were massive demonstrations.

558
01:04:29.830 --> 01:04:35.430
Winton: and well, certainly, and Australia, UK. And the Us.

559
01:04:35.800 --> 01:04:41.409
Winton: And elsewhere. And and they went ahead and invaded anyway.

560
01:04:42.170 --> 01:04:43.839
Winton: in spite of it being

561
01:04:44.160 --> 01:04:48.170
Winton: a major international crime to invade

562
01:04:48.210 --> 01:04:52.310
Winton: a sovereign country. Unilaterally, with no

563
01:04:52.410 --> 01:04:53.740
Winton: provocation.

564
01:04:54.070 --> 01:04:59.140
Winton: And that was certainly an enormous defeat for

565
01:04:59.290 --> 01:05:01.910
Winton: popular mobilization.

566
01:05:01.930 --> 01:05:09.250
Winton: But there! But I think the the other ones you mentioned later, like the

567
01:05:09.600 --> 01:05:15.830
Winton: the Suffragette, the Suffragettes and the Vietnam war zone, and

568
01:05:15.990 --> 01:05:20.980
Winton: maybe and I'm just sort of thinking aloud here it has to do with

569
01:05:21.150 --> 01:05:26.240
Winton: the how these issues affect people in the country.

570
01:05:26.710 --> 01:05:30.680
Winton: The Vietnam war affected people in Australia, because

571
01:05:32.700 --> 01:05:35.699
Winton: what young men were being

572
01:05:36.070 --> 01:05:44.250
Winton: conscripted and then sent over there and getting killed. And it was the the war itself

573
01:05:44.530 --> 01:05:50.049
Winton: had no moral basis whatsoever, and the way of choosing the people to be sent over.

574
01:05:50.870 --> 01:05:55.309
In harm's way, was also completely capricious. It was a lottery

575
01:05:56.060 --> 01:05:59.310
Winton: and a conscription based on a lottery.

576
01:06:00.340 --> 01:06:09.419
Winton: And I think, in that case, and also in Britain, of course. The the women who were disenfranchised were right there.

577
01:06:09.530 --> 01:06:21.320
Winton: and could no doubt give their husbands and brothers, etc., near full about that, and I think that kind it again. There was no moral basis for that disenfranchisement.

578
01:06:21.380 --> 01:06:30.749
Winton: and in that way those mobilisations actually succeeded. So in terms of what we've the problems we're facing

579
01:06:30.830 --> 01:06:32.219
Winton: here now.

580
01:06:32.720 --> 01:06:38.230
Winton: particularly with climate change. The you know, the

581
01:06:38.370 --> 01:06:41.710
Winton: effects of climate change are in everybody's face.

582
01:06:42.340 --> 01:06:47.179
Winton: especially in this country. So I think there's a good chance that

583
01:06:47.250 --> 01:06:52.460
Winton: mass mobilization is going to play an important and necessary, but not sufficient

584
01:06:53.640 --> 01:06:56.770
Winton: in like in getting something done about it.

585
01:06:58.410 --> 01:07:02.689
Winton: Thank you. Thank you, Leonard. Thanks. We've got Gary up next online.

586
01:07:05.260 --> 01:07:06.980
Winton: You'll need to unmute. Gary.

587
01:07:07.950 --> 01:07:09.529
Gary Dean: yeah, I'm muted.

588
01:07:09.590 --> 01:07:17.589
Gary Dean: Okay, II just. I guess I want to talk about the politics and political action

589
01:07:18.000 --> 01:07:25.719
Gary Dean: background. I was sort of born into the industrial left

590
01:07:26.020 --> 01:07:29.849
Gary Dean: in Perth pretty many decades ago

591
01:07:30.230 --> 01:07:41.160
Gary Dean: started, but what would be called a, I guess union activism in my late teens. And basically, for more than 20 years I was

592
01:07:41.720 --> 01:07:46.979
Gary Dean: associated with the the labor movement, including 10 years as a as a

593
01:07:47.450 --> 01:07:51.529
Gary Dean: a political backroom boy for the for the Federal Alp

594
01:07:51.560 --> 01:07:56.209
Gary Dean: during in particular, during the the Hawk Key team. Yes.

595
01:07:56.770 --> 01:08:05.300
Gary Dean: what II guess I want to say is that you know that there can be an over focus on on party politics

596
01:08:05.540 --> 01:08:10.530
Gary Dean: and the ability of politicians to actually do anything

597
01:08:10.930 --> 01:08:16.409
Gary Dean: more than anything else. In in my view, it. It's

598
01:08:16.560 --> 01:08:27.529
Gary Dean: deep cultural change that needs to happen. It's just not a matter of trying to legislate problems out of the way that never works. It never has.

599
01:08:27.729 --> 01:08:33.440
Gary Dean: Cultures need to change it. To change. You need discourse. No. And and

600
01:08:34.149 --> 01:08:36.020
obviously the

601
01:08:36.330 --> 01:08:45.619
Gary Dean: the quality of today's discourse is not on the various narratives. Is not a very high quality.

602
01:08:47.040 --> 01:08:54.450
Gary Dean: And I think the activity, I mean, certainly, you know, local activity. Local activism is is really important.

603
01:08:55.029 --> 01:09:11.360
Gary Dean: But changing cultures, changing people's minds, actually going to the effort of changing people's minds. Take takes a lot more time. And it's just not a matter of taught at people or legislating against them, but but actually changing the culture

604
01:09:11.550 --> 01:09:18.450
Gary Dean: and this this. This involves this involves effort. Of course, it's a lot harder than just passing a laurel

605
01:09:18.500 --> 01:09:20.209
Gary Dean: implementing a policy.

606
01:09:20.880 --> 01:09:27.439
Gary Dean: So yeah, II just want to sort of just high highlight the the importance of

607
01:09:27.640 --> 01:09:34.230
Gary Dean: what I call discourse, basically engagement in in, in the world, and and basically as as a

608
01:09:34.410 --> 01:09:38.869
Gary Dean: as an active agent rather than you know

609
01:09:39.080 --> 01:09:44.079
Gary Dean: somebody possibly doing Buddhist things.

610
01:09:45.689 --> 01:09:48.709
Gary Dean: Yeah, okay, that's that's all I want to say.

611
01:09:48.810 --> 01:09:51.319
Winton: Thanks. Thank you. Gary, thanks.

612
01:09:53.260 --> 01:09:55.300
Winton: John. Here.

613
01:09:55.650 --> 01:09:59.230
Winton: thanks. Also. Gary. Sometimes I've found that the

614
01:09:59.820 --> 01:10:05.019
Winton: the focus to change culture, be it in an organization or in a community,

615
01:10:05.450 --> 01:10:11.339
Winton: is best done. And focusing on changing behaviour. Put that aside.

616
01:10:11.500 --> 01:10:16.310
Winton:  I was thinking Winton about, you know.

617
01:10:16.530 --> 01:10:23.819
Winton: communications and the techniques and technology and some of the other commons. And maybe this is just the bleeding obvious.

618
01:10:24.250 --> 01:10:26.940
Winton: But 2 things. One is

619
01:10:27.430 --> 01:10:33.180
Winton: engaging experts. and paying for really good, quite

620
01:10:33.430 --> 01:10:35.619
Winton: high quality expertise.

621
01:10:35.680 --> 01:10:43.610
Winton: They're really good creative advertising people out there. They're really good creative public relations, people and communications experts.

622
01:10:43.980 --> 01:10:49.120
Winton: So we shouldn't be thinking that we've got to do all this. You know ourselves.

623
01:10:49.250 --> 01:10:55.180
Winton: There, there is a role for bringing in expert advice.

624
01:10:55.320 --> 01:11:02.639
Winton: And and you're contracting the service. You control the project, brief, etc.

625
01:11:02.750 --> 01:11:07.550
Winton: But I think it's got to be in the context of strategy.

626
01:11:07.710 --> 01:11:13.120
Winton: So the conversation we're having over the last few days, and

627
01:11:13.140 --> 01:11:23.629
Winton: I've dealt into the origins of the word strata strategy, and one of them is the Greek definition of which is sort of strategos

628
01:11:23.970 --> 01:11:28.689
Winton: which been translated into English, is not very good. Translation

629
01:11:29.450 --> 01:11:31.550
Winton: really means the general on the hill.

630
01:11:31.810 --> 01:11:43.340
Winton: so the art of strategy is to be thinking much, much further ahead, and then working backwards to say what in the near term will actually contribute to the long term

631
01:11:43.370 --> 01:11:53.530
Winton: that goes beyond what the populace might see today, as the first year will decline, and then we've got a success or failure there, but keeping an eye on the overall strategy.

632
01:11:53.700 --> 01:12:00.119
Winton: And and it's almost a little bit like, you know, taking a leaf out of Macaveli's book and

633
01:12:00.340 --> 01:12:18.900
Winton: and out of war, etc. to really, you know, discipline, way. Ho! Articulate your your strategy, and then your tactics. But taking that over the general over the hill view now I know that that

634
01:12:18.960 --> 01:12:27.759
Winton: money doesn't grow on trees, to be going to go and engage trusted experts in the marketplace to do this.

635
01:12:27.860 --> 01:12:35.399
Winton: So maybe one of the considerations of strategies to start thinking about getting a favourite philanthropist.

636
01:12:35.430 --> 01:12:47.809
Winton: To bankroll this type of investment as well. We don't have to do it all ourselves. I mean, if we've got something really important to do with our health, we don't try and just cure ourselves. We will

637
01:12:47.840 --> 01:12:49.090
Winton: generally go and

638
01:12:49.170 --> 01:12:53.540
Winton: look to an expert to assist us. So I think there's some

639
01:12:53.580 --> 01:13:05.360
Winton: synergy with with the strategy and tactics. Discussion. You know, from and everything else to be talking about this week.

640
01:13:06.420 --> 01:13:07.449
Winton: Thanks, John.

641
01:13:09.180 --> 01:13:15.760
Winton: Yeah, it's Anna here. And yeah, I'm very interested in that, John. But

642
01:13:15.780 --> 01:13:23.549
Winton: the conversations I'm having, especially from overseas, is that it's now really unfashionable to accept experts, opinions

643
01:13:23.810 --> 01:13:34.890
Winton: that this information, etc. Is just going out of fashion. People aren't interested. But I'm still on your team. It's just what I've heard

644
01:13:34.940 --> 01:13:43.749
Winton: belong to an organization called climate for change, and they have a theory of change that involves

645
01:13:44.230 --> 01:14:03.129
Winton: well, the famous spell curve. Really that you know, you get some idea it might be. I don't know. Seat belts or recycling. And to start with, it's slow. 2 or 3 people, 8 people, 1624, you know, on it, and then it and and so their theory of change really is

646
01:14:03.370 --> 01:14:11.520
Winton: is dependent on the fact that most people are affected by someone they know and trust.

647
01:14:11.850 --> 01:14:23.409
Winton: So conversations is what has led to the fastest change that we've seen in our society people talking to people they know and trust, and then they talk to someone, etc.

648
01:14:24.030 --> 01:14:38.280
Winton: So with climate for change, they have, you know. Morning tea's coffee morning, a little bit like the Tupperware model where you start conversations. And these conversations are asking people what's important to them.

649
01:14:38.710 --> 01:14:50.099
Winton: not telling them things. A lot of people aren't doing anything because they're a little bit confused. So you tell them about 6 things that are actually facts about what's happening with the climate

650
01:14:50.310 --> 01:15:00.199
Winton: you tell them this. And then, you know, we show a bit of a movie. But we get a conversation going. And from that conversation. People shift.

651
01:15:00.250 --> 01:15:11.599
Winton: Then we ask someone from that meeting to hold another coffee morning, and on we go spreading. So after 6 meetings you've influenced 64 people, and you know

652
01:15:12.030 --> 01:15:29.600
Winton: that and we don't work with people who are disbelievers or who climate deniers. You know, there's this gradation of people from, you know it goes from confused to distress, to alert, to alarmed to action.

653
01:15:29.620 --> 01:15:58.970
Winton: So if you're talking to someone who's a bit distressed, your aim would just need to shift them up that curve a little bit to where they're alert. If you're talking to someone who's alert, your aim would be, etc., etc., so that you're shifting people along and you don't. And again, this is how I don't know. The whole recycling movement started from people talking to people and and that's their idea of social change within the short years we have of getting everyone on board

654
01:15:59.620 --> 01:16:06.440
Winton: and sharing your ideas. You know I do this. I grow, you know, on my verges, or I do whatever.

655
01:16:06.560 --> 01:16:12.499
Winton: However, you know. Now, I don't do that anymore, because,

656
01:16:12.590 --> 01:16:23.230
Winton: you know, I believe we've got very little time, and I guess, unlike some people have said, I think we have to really work politically. We have to

657
01:16:23.420 --> 01:16:31.689
Winton: write letters, sit on the doorsteps of Mps. And you know, there's examples of where this has really worked, actually.

658
01:16:31.840 --> 01:16:45.769
Winton: and if not, to, you know, to contribute to that mass movement because it's going to be a lot of people like all revolutions. What is it? 3 point something rather. This is statistic that

659
01:16:45.810 --> 01:16:51.080
Winton: Erin Chernoys came up with. If 3.5% of the population

660
01:16:51.780 --> 01:17:03.489
Winton: are out on the streets are protesting, it has a big effect. It has brought about very quick social change. So I just thought I'd mention that that at minimum.

661
01:17:03.670 --> 01:17:09.640
Winton: speak with others and set good examples and talk to people.

662
01:17:10.890 --> 01:17:11.910
Winton: Thank you, Anna.

663
01:17:13.690 --> 01:17:14.689
There you go.

664
01:17:14.800 --> 01:17:16.870
Winton: Hello! Now, Mamie.

665
01:17:17.050 --> 01:17:21.680
Winton:  So what I want to talk about is connectedness.

666
01:17:21.880 --> 01:17:23.869
Winton: And as a

667
01:17:23.930 --> 01:17:25.439
Winton: old activist.

668
01:17:25.640 --> 01:17:28.870
Winton: and I think that

669
01:17:28.920 --> 01:17:33.149
Winton: in on reflection, that's been

670
01:17:33.170 --> 01:17:36.220
Winton: more important than I realized at the time.

671
01:17:36.560 --> 01:17:51.540
Winton: So a lot of our actions did include a lot of things that have mentioned been mentioned. Some of us were on the streets, some of us were in the media, some of us were working politically and

672
01:17:51.560 --> 01:17:56.839
Winton: some of us were working legally, but we all were aware and

673
01:17:56.950 --> 01:18:06.749
Winton: of each other, and we all valued what each one other word was doing, and we all saw each other as being essential to the outcome.

674
01:18:06.880 --> 01:18:12.969
Winton: And I think this feeling of connectedness was the thing that probably kept us going.

675
01:18:13.190 --> 01:18:20.290
Winton: and I think that it's important to remember there are so many people

676
01:18:20.460 --> 01:18:25.379
Winton: that are doing so many different things, and to feel and

677
01:18:25.430 --> 01:18:29.029
Winton: to feel connected. And perhaps that's by finding out

678
01:18:29.190 --> 01:18:45.869
Winton: that who they are and what they're doing, and maybe not joining every group, but joining where you have the expertise or the time, or whatever you have the inclination, but never losing sight, that there are many people.

679
01:18:46.060 --> 01:18:58.499
Winton: and that connection strengthens all of us. And that's why I suppose I've had started when I was a high school student, and I'm now 72. And so it's kept me going.

680
01:18:58.970 --> 01:19:00.090
Winton: Thank you.

681
01:19:01.220 --> 01:19:02.299
Winton: Thank you. Amy

682
01:19:03.050 --> 01:19:06.329
Winton: may maybe go on to be the last cause. We

683
01:19:06.430 --> 01:19:32.390
Winton: need to have a bit of a break before the 4 30. What to do? It seems we're almost into that discussion now. But perhaps if you could just speak, and then we'll I'll be as as brief as I can. Just one or 2 reflections that bounce off things people have been saying. I worked in health promotion for many years. I saw seatbelt legislation coming in. I saw smoking, going down.

684
01:19:33.010 --> 01:19:43.939
Winton: There were in both cases there were 2 parallel processes that interacted. One was building a climate of opinion in the community which enabled legislators to do bold things.

685
01:19:44.480 --> 01:19:54.109
Winton: and the other thing was being very smart about the bold things that the legislators did so. The strategy is there in terms of the bold things that the legislators did

686
01:19:54.300 --> 01:20:18.980
Winton: the health promotion. People were very assiduous at building, at doing completely useless things, like renowned drink, driving courses for people who've been arrested. Drink driving didn't do any good, but it got in the paper. It created opinion and and people went. So I think both are important, and particularly the sort of long-term developments you're talking about. Connection maintaining the links are incredibly important.

687
01:20:19.390 --> 01:20:23.310
Winton: but the second one is the

688
01:20:23.640 --> 01:20:35.370
Winton:  that when we think particularly about the political action, and I'm not particularly smart on this, but I do a little bit through religious response to climate change

689
01:20:35.500 --> 01:20:45.030
Winton: was recently part of an interfaith delegation that went and met with ministers in Canberra. My overwhelming impression. Talking to Chris Bowen and others was.

690
01:20:45.300 --> 01:20:52.139
Winton: we didn't know what we should be doing and asking for. Should we be pushing them to do more?

691
01:20:52.210 --> 01:21:07.340
Winton: Should we be supporting them for what they're doing? Should we be making allowance for the things that they were doing? But haven't told us yet? And there was a very big announcement from Chris Bowen the following week, so I'm glad we were nice to him. And

692
01:21:07.370 --> 01:21:12.789
Winton: to what extent should we be sympathizing with them and saying, We are your supporters.

693
01:21:13.200 --> 01:21:21.289
Winton: and there are different views in the people who came in the group, but my overwhelming impression was that supporting people in what they were doing

694
01:21:21.360 --> 01:21:33.799
Winton: and putting ourselves forward as support supporters for bold action and allowing quite a bit of leeway was actually important. If we weren't going to be seen justice, basically as pests.

695
01:21:34.040 --> 01:21:44.710
Winton: So this, that. And the third one, I would just say, and this undermines the strategy. Is that because the world of climate and climate response.

696
01:21:44.840 --> 01:21:59.970
Winton: and the technology and the finance, and so on, is changing so rapidly. I don't think we have a clue. The pathway to change. I don't think we know whether it's in the boardrooms, whether it's in the laboratories, whether it's on the street, whether it's through cop.

697
01:22:00.520 --> 01:22:04.649
Winton: And so I really do think we have to have a very, very open mind

698
01:22:04.910 --> 01:22:15.339
Winton: as to the usefulness of what we do and where we're actually going to see the progress coming, and I suspect when it does come it's going to surprise us all.

699
01:22:16.600 --> 01:22:21.610
Winton: Thank you. Thank you. Okay. Well, I think we should break for 5 min.

700
01:22:22.360 --> 01:22:28.180
Winton: Come back at 4 30, as previously advertised. and then we can.